Starter - ready yet?

[motiv8d]

I have decided to make the Dragon Stout as my first homebrew. Have started a starter with a few cms of coopers stout topped up with dark malt 75g and water (malt and water was boiled and cooled). Using an air lock secured in the top of the coopers bottle with blu-tak. Temp fluctuates between 17 and 21 between night and day.
On the site I noticed it says to leave starter for a couple of days, but I did that and after 2 days there was only a trace of froth on the top. After 3 days it now has about 6mm of froth at the edges going to 0 mm in centre.
So now I am wondering just how much activity I should be able to see before I know the starter is ready to use as for me the 2 days I dont think was enough.
Cant wait to get this dragon stout started, but have just enough self control to wait on the starter if I need to
Thanks anyone.

[Guest]

Dragon stout hey, not muckin about, good on yah!

Someone correct if me if i'm wrong but the amount of "froth" sounds fine considering the small amount of yeast and malt involved.

Cheers,
Jay.

[db]

>Someone correct if me if i'm wrong but the amount of "froth" sounds fine considering the small amount of yeast and malt involved.

yeah that sounds about right. at this point i'd step it up to a bigger starter or pitch it

[motiv8d]

Thanks Jay & db
Yep, may as well start with something that I should really enjoy, never tried the dragon, but it sounds just like what my tastebuds are seeking
The starter would be about 500 mls at the moment. Is there any advantage to making a bigger starter with it rather than pitching it as is?
I read somewhere about the rule of 10s for starters, do you think that is hard and fast? if so I guess my starter should be about 2.5+ litres.
Also if I add a packet of safale to the pitch, will that have any negatives when using the starter as well? ie, what is the limit of starting yeast that can/should be used?

Cheers guys

[db]

a small starter like you have made should work but it may take time to kick off.. larger starters are better as you are pitching a higher yeast count which, as i understand, helps kick start fermentation earlier & reduce the risks of infection/wild yeasts etc. taking hold..
i usually only pitch pint starters.. but i usually don't do beers with an og that high.. i think stepping it up to 2litres & pitching at high krausen would help it along nicely..

[motiv8d]

Ta db
I will make starter up to 2 litres first then. Would you skip the safale yeast pack then and just use the coopers starter?
Also how do I know when the 2 litres is ready? That there is a bit of froth on top enough of an indication?
Cheers

[db]

if your using a 2L starter i'd save the safale for another day..
i pitch the starter when the froth is at it's highest.

[Oliver]

motiv8d,

Are you following my recipe or Geoff's for the Dragon Stout?

If you're doing mine, I'd recommend using only 500g dark brown sugar instead of 1kg. I found it a bit overpowering.

I think Geoff's was a bit better, using just the 500g.

You can always add more next time, but it's pretty hard to remove if you add too much!

Oliver

[stevem]

When pitching a starter, does one pour the whole lot into the brew or is it better to discard most of the liquid and only pitch the sediment?
My Coopers Real Ale starter is coming on nicely and should be ready to pitch in a day or 2. I have increased the total volume to about 1.5 L at the moment.
Thanks
Steve

[db]

stevem, either.. i generally add the whole lot (i figure i'm pitching more yeast this way).. check:

http://www.whitelabs.com/faq.html#starter

[motiv8d]

Thanks db, doing a 2 litre now so will skip the safale.

Hi Oliver. Thanks for the advice, was going with yours but will do Geoffs Enter the Dragon Stout now with the following exceptions:
1) Coopers Stout as yeast starter - 2 litres
2) Dark Sugar from supermarket as cant find the unrefined dark sugar.

Cheers

[Jay]

I think that "raw sugar" as stated by Geoff is the stuff that is in big granules that are light brown in colour. I think it is basically white sugar not refined as much (don't quote me).

You should be right as long as you use that soft brown stuff that is kind of wet looking, sickly sweet and used mostly for cooking.

Cheers,
Jay.

[motiv8d]

Ta Jay
As far as I am aware, and could well be wrong, I think it could have happened once before

In the Enter the Dragon, Geoff specifies Billingtons Muscovado dark unrefined sugar - from what I can tell, this is true unrefined sugar with the molasses evaporated. result dark and sticky with still a strong molasses component.
I think that the dark brown sugar we get normally at the supermarket is white refined sugar with molasses added back though.
I dont really know how similar the properties between the two would be, but I am hoping close enough that the taste will be similar.
Raw sugar (the light brown/tan stuff) I think is just less refined than the pure white sugar.
If theres a sugar expert reading this I would really like this confirmed or denied, especially in regard to the Australian brands and terms.

Cheers

[Oliver]

From the Macquarie Dictionary:

muscovado noun raw or unrefined sugar, obtained from the juice of the sugar cane by evaporation and draining off the molasses. [Pg. (acucar) mascavado (sugar) of inferior quality, pp. of mascavar diminish]

I think Geoff bought the muscovado at the supermarket. I reckon David Jones (a department store, for those of you not in Oz) would also have it.

You could also try demerara, this being a style of sugar from the West Indies and nearby regions.

You can get it at the supermarket. I think it's the one that comes in large crystals and is dark brown, as opposed to raw sugar, which is light brown and in smaller crystals.

Cheers,

Oliver

[kosmo]

hey motiv8d,

if you're still out there, I'd like some feedback on the stout. I'm about to make the Enter Dragon myself, ... will put the starter on today.

I managed to find Muscavado in one of those alternative food stores that had heaps of different stuff. Bought 2 x 500g packs. Gotta slightly tobacco kinda smell.

Oliver,
You recommended using 500g of dark brown sugar not 1kg in Geoff's. Did he update the recipe on the site? Or did you mean 500g of DME instead of 1kg?

cheers
Ian

[James]

What would happen if you substituted molasses (or treacle - same thing, really) for the brown sugar? Might be simpler than hunting for a really unrefined sugar, go to the source, as it were.

I've got this one on my to do list as well.

James

[mark68]

I wouldn't go overboard with molasses as it is very sickly,even 250 grams was noticable in the stout that i made with it.It's got a peculiar flavour that pervades everything it is used with.

[Oliver]

Oliver,
You recommended using 500g of dark brown sugar not 1kg in Geoff's. Did he update the recipe on the site? Or did you mean 500g of DME instead of 1kg?

Ian,

I used 1kg of soft brown sugar in my recipe and Geoff used 500g of muscovado (see http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/ourhomebrews.html and check out my No.37 and Geoff's No.94). In my opinion the 1kg that I used was just too much. It made the stout a bit sickly.

Cheers,

Oliver

[kosmo]

thnx Oliver,
500g of the muscovado seems to be just right. Not too sweet. But overall a very nice dark / heavy brew.

cheers
Ian

Oliver,
You recommended using 500g of dark brown sugar not 1kg in Geoff's. Did he update the recipe on the site? Or did you mean 500g of DME instead of 1kg?

Ian,

I used 1kg of soft brown sugar in my recipe and Geoff used 500g of muscovado (see http://www.homebrewandbeer.com/ourhomebrews.html and check out my No.37 and Geoff's No.94). In my opinion the 1kg that I used was just too much. It made the stout a bit sickly.

Cheers,

Oliver