Harvesting Yeast with Hops in it?

WSC · Post by **WSC** » Friday Jul 28, 2006 10:26 pm

Have just done a brew with Saflager w34 or whatever it is called.

I didn't strain the hops out before it went in the fermenter. The yeast on the bottom that I would normally bottle so I can make a starter has a fair bit of hops in it.

I have read that the hops and yeast may produce funny flavours together, which is why if you are doing an extract, partial or all grain you rack.

I don't rack and wondered if anyone has harvested yeast like this after fermentation.

Did it produce funny flavours or did it make no difference. I'm paying nearly $4 for the w34 and being a tight arse wanted to make a few batches.

Cheers.

Ed · Post by Ed » Friday Jul 28, 2006 11:02 pm

I do similar and brew all grain, partials, and extract. I usually don't rack either, but do strain the wort through a sieve and sure, some of the hops and break find their way in. Also if the slurry has been fridge stored for 7 to 10 days I don't bother making a starter, there really isn't a need because the yeast cells will fire up straight away. Beyond this I think it wouldn't be a bad idea though as the viability could have dropped.

Had no problem from off flavours pitching slurry up to 2 times, but I do keep to similar profiles. For example I used a US-56 for a porter, followed by a Northern English brown, then a cherry porter, all from the original packet of yeast. I guess this could be pushed further, but why take a chance. $4.50 for yeast covering 3 brews is pretty good value.

A slurry typically is 25% yeast solids and maybe around 90% viable (according to George Fix). This equates to pithching around 300+ml into a 23 litre wort.

Hope that helps.

Cheers, Ed

gregb · Post by **gregb** » Saturday Jul 29, 2006 5:19 am

Another option would be to make a number of starters from the yeast, then save and pitch those rather than salvaging the yeast from the bottom of the batch.

Cheers,
Greg

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Saturday Jul 29, 2006 4:24 pm

I often let the hops into the primary fermenter. It's no big deal, but the yeast slurry CANNOT be reused.

WSC · Post by **WSC** » Saturday Jul 29, 2006 8:19 pm

Chris, in the words of the infamous fish and chip store owner......please explain?

Why? I have the slurry in a stubbie ready to make a starter and don't want to wreck the batch.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Saturday Jul 29, 2006 10:41 pm

The hops simply go stale- or potentially rancid. It is too big a risk.

I am one for proporting the view of many infections being mostly in the mind, but in this case, you are dancing with danger.

Ed · Post by Ed » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 1:01 am

Surely rancidity can only occur with exposure to oxygen and poor santitary proceedures? There is a very low pH value already in the slurry. Those hops are not going to go off by themselves. Stored hops can eventually go rancid. But with low pH values, low temp, and no oxygen, wow, I seriously doubt it.

Biggest danger from pitching a slurry is if you had a problem with the ferment they've come from therefore carying over. Also, if the slurry has been stored too long, the viability will be compromised. If proceedures are good and the slurry isn't old, I really don't see any problem.

There are plenty of experienced brewers pitching slurry. Gee, it's right there in Palmers book. Pitch a cup full he says.

WSC if you want to test it out, make the starter. Before pitching, pour off a little, have a sniff and a taste test. You will quickly pick any problems if they are present. Have a packet of yeast handy if you're worried about it.

Cheers, Ed

chris. · Post by **chris.** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 11:06 am

Chris wrote:I often let the hops into the primary fermenter. It's no big deal, but the yeast slurry CANNOT be reused.

that's total BS your spouting there mate.

& it isn't hard to remove them even if it was a concern. I personally don't bother. You can add an equal amount of sterile water to the yeast cake in a large bottle, shake & leave the heavier particle's to settle out for 5 minutes, then pour the suspended yeast off the top into the fermentor.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 11:17 am

Ed, I disagree on the hops being ok to re-pitch with the yeast. Palmer says nothing about pitching yeast with hop particles in it from memory.

And chris., nothing beats your typical dickhead replies. You've been trying to get up me since you first joined this forum. Get over yourself.

If you notice, I never said anything about seperating hops from yeast slurry, just that you shouldn't pitch the slurry with the hop matter in it.

chris. · Post by **chris.** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 11:38 am

It's not a "dickhead response" mate.

You have Ed here telling you he repitches with hops debris in the trub. I do aswell with no ill effects... Hell even my HB supplier (who is a trained brewer & has worked, & is currently working in commercial breweries) has advised me that it's possible, with proper sanitisation, to re-pitch onto the same cake for upto 3 batches. There was even discussions on AHB recently where ppl were re-pitching upto 5 times.

If your looking for "dickhead responses" look at your own posts. How many times have you pitched yeast with hop debris in it?

Ed · Post by Ed » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 12:47 pm

Chris, have a look at how the pros handle it with their stainless steel conicals. See the side tap on the cone? That's for slurry collection (granted they have it positioned about midway up the cone to collect only the most viable though). As for Palmer, take a look at how he shows to hold back some of the trub, yes that's right, with a spoon. How well would you say that filters hop debris?

I'm not trying to be argumentative so please don't take offence. But I know of many brewers practicing the technique, me included and often. There are brewers who will even repitch directly on the cake (that can introduce another problem but I won't go into it now). I'll repeat. If proceedures are good and the slurry isn't old, it's not a problem. If you have proof positive that it can't be done, you should back that up with some technicals. Otherwise please state that it's only your considered opinion which you are entitled to after all. But to say it CANNOT be done when it clearly is being done, that would be a nonsense. Sorry. It would be better to say you wouldn't recommend it.

Log on to The Brewing Network, download some of Jamils' podcasts and have a listen. He takes you through some of his techniques and blows away many a myth.

Cheers, Ed

chris. · Post by **chris.** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 1:07 pm

Ed wrote: Log on to The Brewing Network, download some of Jamils' podcasts and have a listen. He takes you through some of his techniques and blows away many a myth.

I totally agree. The 1st 2 BN shows that Jamil appeared on are by far some of the best references for new brewers.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 9:55 pm

Ed,

I never claimed that you cannot reuse yeast slurry- I've done that several times before myself.

As for the comment regarding Palmer holding back trub with a spoon, what has that got to do with hop particles?

And I know of no 'pro' brewers who allow particulate hop material into primary. Can you site any?

And chris., have a look back at your early posts. Some very constructive stuff back there.

lethaldog · Post by **lethaldog** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 10:47 pm

I think all you guys should kiss and make up

Its all gettin a little to serious, everyone has their own methods and although everyone has their own opinion is not to say that any of them are completely wrong, each to their own i say and if it works for you then more power to you.

live and let live

Ed · Post by Ed » Sunday Jul 30, 2006 11:24 pm

Champion idea lethaldog.

Cheers, Ed

chris. · Post by **chris.** » Monday Jul 31, 2006 7:39 am

Chris wrote:It's no big deal, but the yeast slurry CANNOT be reused.

Chris wrote: I never claimed that you cannot reuse yeast slurry- I've done that several times before myself.

da_damage_done · Post by **da_damage_done** » Monday Jul 31, 2006 1:00 pm

here are palmers thoughts on it

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-8.html

WSC · Post by **WSC** » Monday Jul 31, 2006 1:03 pm

OK, seems like a worthwhile debate.

I like the idea of making a starter and tasting it/smelling it.

Can I hear from anyone else who actually has used yeast with hops in it and what was their experience?

I'm starting to think that gegb might have the best solution for me next time, I'l make a larger starter, pitch some of it and bottle the rest for next time. At least it should be pure or purish.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Monday Jul 31, 2006 1:30 pm

Beautifully taken out of context chris. If you look, you will see the sentence immediately before that in regard to letting hops into primary. I said that if hop matter goes into primary, then yeast slurry should not be reused. NOT that yeast slurry cannot be reused EVER. Did you just misuderstand my original post?

chris. · Post by **chris.** » Monday Jul 31, 2006 1:47 pm

WSC wrote: Can I hear from anyone else who actually has used yeast with hops in it and what was their experience?

It's worked out fine for me.
I personally wouldn't push my luck & re-use the same yeast cake more than twice, but that's just me.
I'd say in your circumstance (I assume the brew was not all grain?) you'll have no problems re-using your yeast cake.
Although if you are worried you could rinse the yeast -
swirl the fermentor to break up the cake.
Pour around 750ml off into a 1.5L bottle. fill the bottle up with pre-boiled & cooled water (within 5deg of the yeast cake).
put a bung inthe bottle & shake it up.
allow the heavier particles to settle out (10mins or so).
pour the top off into the fermentor leaving behind what has settled out.

Here's some threads you can read up to hopefully make your own judgement.

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=58100

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=56638

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=53867

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=44290

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/i ... opic=10322