Not sure if this has been posted before but I found it worth a look if you wanna see where the Coopers kits come from through an online brewery tour !!
Cheers
http://www.cascadiabrew.com/the_brewery_tour.asp
Coopers Brewery Tour Online
Brewery porn! Thanks for the link.
Also has an interesting article here: http://www.cascadiabrew.com/intermediate.asp
and here: http://www.cascadiabrew.com/exploding_the_orthodoxy.asp
both of which contradict a lot of the accepted wisdom that seems to get passed around.
Also has an interesting article here: http://www.cascadiabrew.com/intermediate.asp
and here: http://www.cascadiabrew.com/exploding_the_orthodoxy.asp
both of which contradict a lot of the accepted wisdom that seems to get passed around.
Well I'm buggered if I know, I have been making homebrew for ten years or so, and have always used Coopers kits, origionally just the origional series with a kilo of sugar, then a bit later on I tried the heritage series which introduced me to some other fermentables. I have followed the instructions that come with the kits fairly closely and have always made some reasonable beers, granted the earlier ones with just the sugar as opposed to brew enhancers etc were not as good as the ones done with brew enhancers, but never the less all drinkable and all better than most commercial beers. I reckon a mob like Coopers who have been making beer since well before any of us were born, should have some idea what they are on about. I am not too sure why some people are always bagging Coopers products etc. as if they are a much more informed source themselves. I reckon people need to remember that we all have different tastes (people do actually drink VB and reckon they love the stuff!) maybe the beer you make is not as good as you think, to someone else!
Ross
Got to agree with you there r.magnay. Has anyone done a true direct comparison by using the exact same ingredients and just changed the brewing methond? I seriously doubt it. But it sounds like Coopers have.
What possible reason could they have for putting "dodgy" instructions in their kits? They have been around for a long time so they should know what they are talking about.
It looks like there are a few beer snobs around who believe anything that they are told because they read it in a book. Don't believe everything unless you've actually proven it to yourself.
What possible reason could they have for putting "dodgy" instructions in their kits? They have been around for a long time so they should know what they are talking about.
It looks like there are a few beer snobs around who believe anything that they are told because they read it in a book. Don't believe everything unless you've actually proven it to yourself.
Haha ok then, tell you what. We're all free to use whatever methods we like. I have tried:
a) my dad's beer, made to the instructions, and
b) my beer, made to various recipes using quality ingredients.
Now, I may be biased, but I reckon mine's better. My dad has loved the brews that I've made for him too. Of course there are no absolutes, but I think that trying to get as close to what the pros do just has to improve your beer.
I challenge you to find a pro who uses 50% cane sugar and ferments at 27 degrees!
It just doesn't happen. I do know that there is a fair bit of sugar in VB and Carlton Draught, and I've heard they do a batch in 24 hours or something stupid, but I'm not trying to make megaswill. I'm trying to make something a bit special.
I read through those instructions, and there are some good points, like making an extremely pale style like a Canadian blonde or a very pale ale (like Coopers green) will require some sugar. Whether you're better off with cane sugar or wheat/corn sugar (dextrose) is another matter. Fermenting at 27 degrees will reduce your chance of infection, but it will also reduce your chance of making a really clean tasting beer. Not boiling malt extracts is an interesting point, and one that requires further thought. I suspect it has something to do with the extremely small boil sizes, and thus the extremely high boil gravities, that you get in the homebrew environment.
Honestly, their advice sounds like 50% justifying themselves, 50% good advice. Just make up your own mind; half the joy of this hobby is experimentation.
a) my dad's beer, made to the instructions, and
b) my beer, made to various recipes using quality ingredients.
Now, I may be biased, but I reckon mine's better. My dad has loved the brews that I've made for him too. Of course there are no absolutes, but I think that trying to get as close to what the pros do just has to improve your beer.
I challenge you to find a pro who uses 50% cane sugar and ferments at 27 degrees!
It just doesn't happen. I do know that there is a fair bit of sugar in VB and Carlton Draught, and I've heard they do a batch in 24 hours or something stupid, but I'm not trying to make megaswill. I'm trying to make something a bit special.I read through those instructions, and there are some good points, like making an extremely pale style like a Canadian blonde or a very pale ale (like Coopers green) will require some sugar. Whether you're better off with cane sugar or wheat/corn sugar (dextrose) is another matter. Fermenting at 27 degrees will reduce your chance of infection, but it will also reduce your chance of making a really clean tasting beer. Not boiling malt extracts is an interesting point, and one that requires further thought. I suspect it has something to do with the extremely small boil sizes, and thus the extremely high boil gravities, that you get in the homebrew environment.
Honestly, their advice sounds like 50% justifying themselves, 50% good advice. Just make up your own mind; half the joy of this hobby is experimentation.
w00t!
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BierMeister
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Tuesday Jun 13, 2006 1:53 pm
- Location: Adelaide
I have to agree with RWH there. 50%good and 50%bad. Also Coopers seem to be back peddling with some of the advice given. They state that using their brew enhancers is better than using cane or beet sugars (although they try to qualify that by saying sugar is also good). about 5 or 6 years ago you couldn't get coopers brew enhancers. They brought those out to compete with the HBS scene that where selling their own beer kits with malt mixtures. All of a sudden the labels changed from 1kg of sugar to 1kg of brew sugars. Hmmm 
I'll agree that Coopers kits are good and I wouldn't boil a kit in only 1 gallon of water for an hour, but who are these two stooges fronting for coopers anyway? They're trying to import and sell Coopers products. Hmmm
Coopers may know alot about beer making and I am a true blue SA lad and love my Coopers stout and pale ale, but I know marketing when I see it. Cleverly disguised Mr. Cooper.
I'll agree that Coopers kits are good and I wouldn't boil a kit in only 1 gallon of water for an hour, but who are these two stooges fronting for coopers anyway? They're trying to import and sell Coopers products. Hmmm
Coopers may know alot about beer making and I am a true blue SA lad and love my Coopers stout and pale ale, but I know marketing when I see it. Cleverly disguised Mr. Cooper.
Sounds like Beer O'clock.
I'm a beer snob! And I never even knew it.
It's already been said- Coopers are trying to sell product, and their marketing angle is: fast, simple, cheap.
Fast- brew it at higher temps, and the beer is ready sooner.
Simple- just dump and stir.
Cheap- don't add malt (it's expensive) or hops (the most expersive part of most beers). Why not just follow the old instructions, and use 1kg of white sugar?
It's already been said- Coopers are trying to sell product, and their marketing angle is: fast, simple, cheap.
Fast- brew it at higher temps, and the beer is ready sooner.
Simple- just dump and stir.
Cheap- don't add malt (it's expensive) or hops (the most expersive part of most beers). Why not just follow the old instructions, and use 1kg of white sugar?
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BierMeister
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Tuesday Jun 13, 2006 1:53 pm
- Location: Adelaide
Most of us that have started HB started out following the instructions and have moved on, so yes we have changed the brewing method with the same ingredients and have noticed a difference. Ie brewing at 24 to 27C. Beer not so good. Brewing at 20C beer better. brewing at variating temps beer not so good. brewing at constant temps. beer good. not being thorough with sanitizing. beer not good.... I think you get the point.FazerPete wrote:Got to agree with you there r.magnay. Has anyone done a true direct comparison by using the exact same ingredients and just changed the brewing methond? I seriously doubt it. But it sounds like Coopers have.
Think about this one a littleWhat possible reason could they have for putting "dodgy" instructions in their kits? They have been around for a long time so they should know what they are talking about.
Speed is of the escence. Who would initially get into homebrewing if they thought it would be complicated. Pour kit into Coopers fermenter with water and sugar. Simple. Even better for Coopers if you use Coopers Brewing sugar instead of just Sugar. Who makes more profit then?No us "beer snobs" believe our taste buds and believe those in the know. IE other home brewers brewing to HB conditions. Not a Large commercial brewery who, as the previous post states, are trying to make a quick buck.It looks like there are a few beer snobs around who believe anything that they are told because they read it in a book. Don't believe everything unless you've actually proven it to yourself.
Do you think Coopers or other breweries use 50% cane sugar in any of their beers? Possibly 10-15% at most. Why? Because they wouldn't be able to sell it if it did. Coopers go on about only using the best methods and pure malt ingredients in their kits(which is great) but then tell first time brewers to throw in the crap that they won't put in their ingredients. If anything how is that not dodgy. Ask your self this. Why is it that in Germany there is a purity law that states that Beer is only to be made from Barley Malt, Water and Hops(they have since added Yeast) Because they are beer snobs? Or is it because they have a tradition of beer making and know from hundreds of years of experience what makes good beer?
P.S. Yes that means that Wheat beer is not legally beer in germany. It's classed as a food product and is traditionally consumed by many a builder at lunch time!!
Sounds like Beer O'clock.
Coopers and other kit providers will tell you to use sugar because its a fermentable that you can buy anywhere very cheap and is always redilly available, for an absolute novice just thinking about brewing to pick up one of thier kits and read that after buying then they need to chase up a homebrew store and pay 5-10 times as much per kilo for malt or other fermentables would be enough for them to put it back on the shelf and walk away..FazerPete wrote:Got to agree with you there r.magnay. Has anyone done a true direct comparison by using the exact same ingredients and just changed the brewing methond? I seriously doubt it. But it sounds like Coopers have.
What possible reason could they have for putting "dodgy" instructions in their kits? They have been around for a long time so they should know what they are talking about.
It looks like there are a few beer snobs around who believe anything that they are told because they read it in a book. Don't believe everything unless you've actually proven it to yourself.
Sales are the main thing on the agenda for companys like coopers and why wouldnt they be, after all business is business
Its not accurate to say its dodgy advice but its just withholding alot of info ( not telling you the whole story) so as to not scare you off IMHO
Cheers
Leigh
Leigh
Do you remember how much you enjoyed your first batch? Mine a white Coopers Draught tin, kilo of no frills white sugar, kit yeast, brewed inside 3 30+ degree days ?
It was my gateway batch and although I know that today I'd pick a heap of faults, I do still remember the revelation that it was.
Cheers,
Greg
It was my gateway batch and although I know that today I'd pick a heap of faults, I do still remember the revelation that it was.
Cheers,
Greg
Interesting discussion.
First tried HB about 25 years ago. Coopers kit & kilo (kilo of sugar, that is). By Australian commercial beer standards of the day, kit & kilo (of sugar) produced outstanding results, subject to one proviso not mentioned in the HB instructions. Temperature Control!
Don't know what pointed me in the right direction, because there was no www, no half decent HB shops, and bugger all books (can't remember ever reading one). But from some source or other I became convinced that Temperature Control was extremely important. Was probably the advice to heat fermenters in winter (winters used to be absolutely freezing in Toowoomba, and lasted 4 - 6 months).
Bought a plastic bin and a thermostatically controlled aquarium heater. Put filled fermenter in bin, added water sufficient to cover heater unit, the latter being set to lower end of recommended brew temp range, switched it on, and away we would go. When summer came, turned off aquarium heater, but continued using water filled bin to house fermenter. Wow! 24 - 25 degC brewing in summer. My summer brews were terrific compared with friends who brewed with no regard to temperature.
Had to stop all this when my business became ensnared in the tentacles of the late Sir Peter Abels" TNT. But that is another story.
Second time into HB at the start of this year, and what a difference! Sophisticated compared with 25 years ago, to say the least. But one thing hasn't changed. Good HB is still better than everyday commercial beer!
One big difference between now and 25 years ago was the rareity of imported beers. They were as rare as hen's teeth 25 years ago, and Carlton Crown Lager, from memory, was the only local premium beer. In Qld., at any rate. So no high goals to aim for.
Another big difference was the absence of forums like this, but understandable as the www was not available then.
One thing that hasn't changed is the profit motive. Marketing methods have become more sophisticated. I think! But without the profit motive, what sort of products would be available to us? Each HB supplier is operating in a competitive market. Up to us consumers to select the best in everchanging market situations.
Sorry. What a rant!
First tried HB about 25 years ago. Coopers kit & kilo (kilo of sugar, that is). By Australian commercial beer standards of the day, kit & kilo (of sugar) produced outstanding results, subject to one proviso not mentioned in the HB instructions. Temperature Control!
Don't know what pointed me in the right direction, because there was no www, no half decent HB shops, and bugger all books (can't remember ever reading one). But from some source or other I became convinced that Temperature Control was extremely important. Was probably the advice to heat fermenters in winter (winters used to be absolutely freezing in Toowoomba, and lasted 4 - 6 months).
Bought a plastic bin and a thermostatically controlled aquarium heater. Put filled fermenter in bin, added water sufficient to cover heater unit, the latter being set to lower end of recommended brew temp range, switched it on, and away we would go. When summer came, turned off aquarium heater, but continued using water filled bin to house fermenter. Wow! 24 - 25 degC brewing in summer. My summer brews were terrific compared with friends who brewed with no regard to temperature.
Had to stop all this when my business became ensnared in the tentacles of the late Sir Peter Abels" TNT. But that is another story.
Second time into HB at the start of this year, and what a difference! Sophisticated compared with 25 years ago, to say the least. But one thing hasn't changed. Good HB is still better than everyday commercial beer!
One big difference between now and 25 years ago was the rareity of imported beers. They were as rare as hen's teeth 25 years ago, and Carlton Crown Lager, from memory, was the only local premium beer. In Qld., at any rate. So no high goals to aim for.
Another big difference was the absence of forums like this, but understandable as the www was not available then.
One thing that hasn't changed is the profit motive. Marketing methods have become more sophisticated. I think! But without the profit motive, what sort of products would be available to us? Each HB supplier is operating in a competitive market. Up to us consumers to select the best in everchanging market situations.
Sorry. What a rant!
Cheers,
Pacman
Pacman
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danthebeerman
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sunday Dec 10, 2006 2:56 pm
- Location: Gods City, Newcastle
Boags Brewery
speaking of brewery tours. about 6 weeks ago i went on a tour of the bopags brewery in tassie. unreal. at the time they were bottleing boags draught and the labelling machine labels the bottle a 880 per minute. it was just blur. ever in tassie. worth a look
THINKING IS THE HARDEST WORK THERE IS. THAT IS WHY SO FEW PEOPLE ENGAGE IN IT!