Crystal
I haven't had a problem with either of these things...ryan wrote:NC- You need to boil the liquid, after steeping and straining it.If you don`t, you risk all sorts of greeblies and gremlins getting a foothold. Plus it would probably be a nightmare to rack or bottle with all that grain in there.
I usually heat to just below a boil. My understanding is that most nasties wont survive over about 60 or 70 degrees and any that do would probably also survive a boil anyway...
As for racking and bottling - I find that some grains and gritty bits will go from primary into secondary but all will eventually settle out given enough time. Then I rack to a third carboy in which I bulk prime. Probably a good two to three weeks from pitching yeast to bottling in most cases where I have done this.
I'm more wondering about the effects on flavour or mouthfeel etc...
You`re asking about flavour and mouthfeel when you ferment with grain left in the primary. I don`t know because I`ve never done it, don`t know anyone that does, and don`t understand why you are doing it. You said in a previous thread you boiled 250g. torrified wheat and put the lot in fermenter, then had to skim and strain what didn`t settle out. Then you lost 4l. in trub.
If that`s not a good reason to strain grain before putting it in the fermenter, I don`t know what is.
Steep specialty grains {don`t boil}
strain and rinse the grain into boil pot
Boil resultant liquid with rest of fermentables
Lot less problems
If that`s not a good reason to strain grain before putting it in the fermenter, I don`t know what is.
Steep specialty grains {don`t boil}
strain and rinse the grain into boil pot
Boil resultant liquid with rest of fermentables
Lot less problems
I don't know a good reason either, and am looking for one. Hence my query...
As far as I can see, if the only reason to strain out grain at the beginning of the process is to avoid having to deal with it at the end of the process, then it is six of one, half a dozen of the other.
If, however, leaving grains in for the duration of the primary fermentation is likely to have a significant (negative) impact on the character of a beer, then this would provide me with the good reason I am after.
As far as I can see, if the only reason to strain out grain at the beginning of the process is to avoid having to deal with it at the end of the process, then it is six of one, half a dozen of the other.
If, however, leaving grains in for the duration of the primary fermentation is likely to have a significant (negative) impact on the character of a beer, then this would provide me with the good reason I am after.
Well, it`s over to somebody that actually ferments with all the grain in primary for an answer from experience.N.C. wrote:I don't know a good reason either, and am looking for one. Hence my query...
As far as I can see, if the only reason to strain out grain at the beginning of the process is to avoid having to deal with it at the end of the process, then it is six of one, half a dozen of the other.
If, however, leaving grains in for the duration of the primary fermentation is likely to have a significant (negative) impact on the character of a beer, then this would provide me with the good reason I am after.
Here is one good reason: you want to avoid stuffing around with your beer after the boil. Before the boil, feel free to dance a jig in your kettle, do whatever you want. The boil will sterilise it. Once you have cooled your wort to fermentation temperatures, be very very careful. Do everything you can not to introduce any foreign bacteria. Straining crap off the top of the wort with a sieve sounds exactly like something you would want to avoid.
w00t!
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BierMeister
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Tuesday Jun 13, 2006 1:53 pm
- Location: Adelaide
Other points are that steeping at 60 to 70C may kill some of the bacteria etc, but the grain is a great hiding place. You wouldn't scratch the surface of your fermenter just for fun would you? Boiling doesn't kill all bacteria, but boiling for 10 mins or more does. Just ask those that lived through the Sydney water crisis a few years back.
Also by leaving the grain in the fermenter you are adding more chance of off flavours and bad effects coming out from the extra starch and grain husks just sitting in the brew for a week. Astringency, cloudier beer etc... The grain would also change the PH of the wort. I would say to the detriment of the yeast which tends to try and set its own conditions. Sure you may still be brewing beer with the grain left in, but have you tried it without. My bet is that it will taste better without.
Also by leaving the grain in the fermenter you are adding more chance of off flavours and bad effects coming out from the extra starch and grain husks just sitting in the brew for a week. Astringency, cloudier beer etc... The grain would also change the PH of the wort. I would say to the detriment of the yeast which tends to try and set its own conditions. Sure you may still be brewing beer with the grain left in, but have you tried it without. My bet is that it will taste better without.
Sounds like Beer O'clock.
Thanks fellas interesting stuff.
So to clarify the process:
Cold steep:
pour grain into couple litres water
leave overnight / 24 hours?
strain out grain (normal strainer ok?)
add grainy water to boil with hops and malt etc.
Also why do some people use a sock and other by the sound of things just add the grain then strain out. Is there a difference?
Thanks
So to clarify the process:
Cold steep:
pour grain into couple litres water
leave overnight / 24 hours?
strain out grain (normal strainer ok?)
add grainy water to boil with hops and malt etc.
Also why do some people use a sock and other by the sound of things just add the grain then strain out. Is there a difference?
Thanks
Coopers.
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BierMeister
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Tuesday Jun 13, 2006 1:53 pm
- Location: Adelaide
ryan - You don't have to strain off grains at the end of a ferment if you rack is what I mean...
BierMeister - That is more the kind of information I am looking for. However I do not agree that boiling for longer kills more bacteria. Once you are over the temps in which bacteria cannot survive, they die. This is around 70 degrees celcius for most bacteria. They do not die more because you expose them to that temperature for longer. (Having endured the Sydney water crisis a few years back - although Giardia and Cryptosporidium are not really an issue for me currently).
The purpose of steeping is to extract certain properties from the grain. Presumably (within reason) a longer steeping process with less ingredients should yield a similar result to a short steep with more ingredients... The question really is will the occurance of grains affect the fermentation, and you suggest this is likely.
However, putting as much grain in the fermenter as you would use when steeping and straining is likely to have a significantly greater impact than putting in as much grain as would be required to obtain a similar result based on the amount of ingredient/steeping time ratio... At least that is my contention.
But you are right. I should play around with this a little and try going with a few different options just to make sure I am not selling myself short...
BierMeister - That is more the kind of information I am looking for. However I do not agree that boiling for longer kills more bacteria. Once you are over the temps in which bacteria cannot survive, they die. This is around 70 degrees celcius for most bacteria. They do not die more because you expose them to that temperature for longer. (Having endured the Sydney water crisis a few years back - although Giardia and Cryptosporidium are not really an issue for me currently).
The purpose of steeping is to extract certain properties from the grain. Presumably (within reason) a longer steeping process with less ingredients should yield a similar result to a short steep with more ingredients... The question really is will the occurance of grains affect the fermentation, and you suggest this is likely.
However, putting as much grain in the fermenter as you would use when steeping and straining is likely to have a significantly greater impact than putting in as much grain as would be required to obtain a similar result based on the amount of ingredient/steeping time ratio... At least that is my contention.
But you are right. I should play around with this a little and try going with a few different options just to make sure I am not selling myself short...
Last edited by N.C. on Thursday Jan 18, 2007 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
A sock is just finer, and a bit easier. Can be had from the HBS for $0.99. 
Here's my process:
1. Put the sock in a small pot with the opening of the sock around the top of the pot (so effectively the sock is lining the inside of the pot).
2. Crack the grain in my mortar and pestle, about 75g at a time.
3. Pour this into the sock.
4. Boil some water in my kettle.
5. Take the sock out of the pot, add the hot water, add cold to bring to about 80°C if necessary.
6. Put sock in the water, with the top hanging out.
7. Go do something else for 20 minutes, like sanitise the fermenter or whatever.
8. Lift the sock out of the water, rinse with a little more hot water, squeeze with a pair of tongs.
9. Pour the liquor into my big pot to use as the basis for my mini-boil.
Here's my process:
1. Put the sock in a small pot with the opening of the sock around the top of the pot (so effectively the sock is lining the inside of the pot).
2. Crack the grain in my mortar and pestle, about 75g at a time.
3. Pour this into the sock.
4. Boil some water in my kettle.
5. Take the sock out of the pot, add the hot water, add cold to bring to about 80°C if necessary.
6. Put sock in the water, with the top hanging out.
7. Go do something else for 20 minutes, like sanitise the fermenter or whatever.
8. Lift the sock out of the water, rinse with a little more hot water, squeeze with a pair of tongs.
9. Pour the liquor into my big pot to use as the basis for my mini-boil.
w00t!
N.C. wrote:ryan - You don't have to strain off grains at the end of a ferment if you rack is what I mean...
BierMeister - That is more the kind of information I am looking for. However I do not agree that boiling for longer kills more bacteria. Once you are over the temps in which bacteria cannot survive, they die. This is around 70 degrees celcius for most bacteria. They do not die more because you expose them to that temperature for longer. (Having endured the Sydney water crisis a few yeas back - although Giardia and Cryptosporidium are not really an issue for me currently).
The purpose of steeping is to extract certain properties from the grain. Presumably (within reason) a longer steeping process with less ingredients should yield a similar result to a short steep with more ingredients... The question really is will the occurance of grains affect the fermentation, and you suggest this is likely.
However, putting as much grain in the fermenter as you would use when steeping and straining is likely to have a significantly greater impact than putting in as much grain as would be required to obtain a similar result based on the amount of ingredient/steeping time ratio... At least that is my contention.
But you are right. I should play around with this a little and try going with a few different options just to make sure I am not selling myself short...
Just do as you`re bloody told.
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BierMeister
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Tuesday Jun 13, 2006 1:53 pm
- Location: Adelaide
NC, I know you want to be right here, but I just think you are thinking about this all wrong. First with boiling, its not that 10 mins at 100C kills things more. Its that when you boil liquid the entire liquid does not become 100C instantly. 10mins is a safe time zone that all the liquid reaches this temp and therefore kills all the bacteria in the liquid. This applies especially when something like grain is in liquid at say 70C. Cold spots are formed. Every AGer will tell you what sort of effect this has on efficiency, but in this case if you have a cold spot in your steeping grains at say 55C or 60C you may be making ideal conditions for certain bugs.N.C. wrote:ryan - You don't have to strain off grains at the end of a ferment if you rack is what I mean...
BierMeister - That is more the kind of information I am looking for. However I do not agree that boiling for longer kills more bacteria. Once you are over the temps in which bacteria cannot survive, they die. This is around 70 degrees celcius for most bacteria. They do not die more because you expose them to that temperature for longer. (Having endured the Sydney water crisis a few yeas back - although Giardia and Cryptosporidium are not really an issue for me currently).
The purpose of steeping is to extract certain properties from the grain. Presumably (within reason) a longer steeping process with less ingredients should yield a similar result to a short steep with more ingredients... The question really is will the occurance of grains affect the fermentation, and you suggest this is likely.
However, putting as much grain in the fermenter as you would use when steeping and straining is likely to have a significantly greater impact than putting in as much grain as would be required to obtain a similar result based on the amount of ingredient/steeping time ratio... At least that is my contention.
But you are right. I should play around with this a little and try going with a few different options just to make sure I am not selling myself short...
Second, the amount of ingredients will effect the outcome, but with steeping it's not like mashing where the sugars are being converted from the starches. With crystal/cara malts the process has already been done and what ever starches that are left in the grain will stay starches as there are no enzymes left to convert them. the enzymes were denatured with the stewing process. Really all we are doing when steeping is washing the sugars out of the grain. You will never get them 100% out, but I believe that there is a point where the astringency risk of leaving the husks in liquid out weighs any minute gain in sugar extraction one would get. I think that by straining the grains and rinsing them as most do you would get that extra amount of sugar out with out the risk of astringency.
Sounds like Beer O'clock.
Talk about radical brewing.
Strain & Boil guys... Strain & Boil.
Unless you don't mind lambics
Last edited by chris. on Thursday Oct 11, 2007 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.