Lager and ale combind

rahne · Post by **rahne** » Tuesday May 15, 2007 5:33 pm

I been thinking for some time to try and brew an ale larger mix
only as a joke at start and then as time went on my curious side started to take hold and I now fine my self starting to make a plan to try it.
heres what i'm thinking
1 coopers pale ale kit
1 coopers larger kit
1 coopers brew enhancer (1/2)
30 L

only a starting plan if anyone has a better idea or has tried this and succeeded and has a recipe let me know.

Paleman · Post by **Paleman** » Tuesday May 15, 2007 7:54 pm

You wont get anything exotic out of that.

Just a syrupy two can brew. if you use the supplied yeast, youll get a two can ale. If you use a lager yeast, youll get a two can lager. If you use a mixture of a lager and ale yeast, whatever temperature you brew at, the yeast that suits that temp will dominate. Colder temp, youll have a lager, warmer temp an ale.

rahne · Post by **rahne** » Tuesday May 15, 2007 8:00 pm

so how do I get a mix this is why i am asking

Paleman · Post by **Paleman** » Tuesday May 15, 2007 8:06 pm

I dont think theres such thing. Its either an ale or a lager. Just because it says lager on the can, doesnt mean it will be a lager, unless you use a lager yeast.

Same as an ale, if you brew a can, labelled ale........with a lager yeast, you will get a lager.

It all depends on yeast, not what its labelled. So a lager/ale mix is non existent. Unless there are some funky yeasts out there that are hybrid ??

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Wednesday May 16, 2007 4:43 pm

Yep, it depends soley on the yeast. You could try pitching 2 different stains and see what happens.

rahne · Post by **rahne** » Wednesday May 16, 2007 5:03 pm

i spent a hour googling for a ale cross larger and oly came up with 2 American beers how ever they mention nothing about beeing ale cross larger on the websites so i forgot about the idea until recent what if i use both ale and larger yeast during half the brew have the brew i keep it cold and in the second half i warm it up so that both yeast can do there jobs

wildschwein · Post by **wildschwein** » Friday May 18, 2007 10:08 pm

Maybe a way to achieve an ale and lager mix is to brew an ale and a larger seperately and then pour a glass containing half of each.

Most of you will know that in England there is an old tradition of doing mixes from different taps at the pub, like half and halfs (which I think is dark and light ale) and black and tan (maybe dark and bitter). Please correct me if this is wrong.

I don't know if its still practiced or not though, I just read about it in a book. Either way maybe this a route you could take if you want a true lager and ale blend.

Tipsy · Post by **Tipsy** » Friday May 18, 2007 10:55 pm

If you brew some of the Coopers beer they come with a blend of lager/ale yeast so if you get get your temp right (in between) you should brew a beer that is indefinable

Pale_Ale · Post by **Pale_Ale** » Saturday May 19, 2007 1:21 am

The ale/lager blend from Coopers comes out with an ale taste for most due to the temp. Ale and lager are 2 differentthings, there is no way they can be both.

Tipsy · Post by **Tipsy** » Saturday May 19, 2007 9:47 am

Pale_Ale wrote:The ale/lager blend from Coopers comes out with an ale taste for most due to the temp. Ale and lager are 2 differentthings, there is no way they can be both.

I had recently asked why they use both strains on the coopers forum

Both ale and lager strains have a role to play. Above 37.5C and the lager strain would perish. Below 16C and the ale strain will slow towards dormancy.

So you could say that the normal 21-27C range would see both strains contributing but as the ferment temp is dropped down through 16C the lager strain becomes the dominant yeast.

I reckon its possible to have both types of yeast having an affect on fermentation.

111222333 · Post by **111222333** » Saturday May 19, 2007 10:46 am

I would have thought that at normal clean ale temps (18-20) the lager yeast is producing significant fruity esters, so the brew will be clean but still has that fruity taste in the background. Sort of like a Steam, but a little cleaner due to the ale yeast being at its preferred temps. Any way that is what I assumed

wildschwein · Post by **wildschwein** » Tuesday May 22, 2007 3:31 pm

Something else I thought of with regard to this topic was German Altbier.

These are actually both ales and lagers. The wort is usually first fermented at ale temps with ale yeasts which develops the esters and fusel oils for the fruity taste aroma. After the ale yeast has done its job the beer is racked to a secondary and a lager yeast is introduced to attenuate whatever the ale yeast left behind at lager temps.

So I guess you could say that the German Altbier is truly an ale/lager composite. With regard to doing it all in the primary: if you did put a mixed ale/lager strain in a brew and you fermented warm for a while and then lagered you should get a simialr result.

rahne · Post by **rahne** » Tuesday May 22, 2007 5:21 pm

i was thinking about first brewing the larger yeast then bringing it to a heat that will kill the lager yeast half way through then adding ale yeast (feed it for a few days before so it is thriving) for the second half to finish the job of

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Wednesday May 23, 2007 9:46 am

Heat sterilising fermenting beer is a bad idea. Infection and spoilage are likely to abound.

wildschwein · Post by **wildschwein** » Wednesday May 23, 2007 9:06 pm

Yeah, I don't think it sounds like a good idea. As well as that, a lager yeast is able to attenuate more fermentables than an ale yeast so its more logical to do the ale fermentation first and then add a lager yeast, get the wort temperature down and let it clean up what the ale yeast left behind.

Pale_Ale · Post by **Pale_Ale** » Wednesday May 23, 2007 10:43 pm

wildschwein wrote:Yeah, I don't think it sounds like a good idea. As well as that, a lager yeast is able to attenuate more fermentables than an ale yeast so its more logical to do the ale fermentation first and then add a lager yeast, get the wort temperature down and let it clean up what the ale yeast left behind.

You could but then that raises the question of why use the ale yeast in the first place? What the ale yeast leaves behind is an essential flavour in ales as opposed to the dryer flavour of lagers.

wildschwein · Post by **wildschwein** » Wednesday May 23, 2007 10:51 pm

Pale_Ale wrote:
wildschwein wrote:Yeah, I don't think it sounds like a good idea. As well as that, a lager yeast is able to attenuate more fermentables than an ale yeast so its more logical to do the ale fermentation first and then add a lager yeast, get the wort temperature down and let it clean up what the ale yeast left behind.
You could but then that raises the question of why use the ale yeast in the first place? What the ale yeast leaves behind is an essential flavour in ales as opposed to the dryer flavour of lagers.

The fruity flavours and aromas generated by the ale yeast won't be lost. They will still be there after the lager is finished.

Pale_Ale · Post by **Pale_Ale** » Thursday May 24, 2007 12:43 pm

I was referring to the residual sugars left by the lower attenuation of the ale yeast.

There's certainly nothing wrong with blending yeasts in fact wyeast sell several blends...but an ale/lager blend in the cases I've seen are a way for beginner hbers to get as much lager taste as possible without having to raise the temp i.e cerveza...this does not work however and you get a boatload of pineapple esters.

As to your idea wildschwien, there was a related discussion from memory in a topic called 'finishing yeast' or something. It can be done but I personally wouldn't do it. Each to their own

wildschwein · Post by **wildschwein** » Thursday May 24, 2007 3:50 pm

Yeah PA, I wouldn't do it either. I was just talking about some things I knew in relation to the topic. I only have one fermenter and I don't have much time for lagering although I am doing a Cooper's Bavarian at the moment because of the cooler weather. But the German Altbier method is a good model for anyone interested in wanting to do get a bit of both ale and lager worlds. Or as you say Cooper's Mexican Cerveza has an ale/lager mix.