Lager without Racking?

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Fermenting Fred
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Lager without Racking?

Post by Fermenting Fred »

Hi Fellow beerologists,
Just bottled an Amarillo from a fresh wort kit, which was a bit on the lazy end of the effort scale I felt, therefore slapped,(read lovingly), put together the following Lager for the test in patience but am I wasting my time if not racking?? :shock:
Morgans Blue Mount Lager
250g of Larger grain mix(carapils)
1kg Ultra brew(Malt,dex,corn syrup)
Hallertau hops tea bag
Pitched W34/70 Saflager @ 22'
Fermenting in Garage @14-16.

Getting to the point...after lots of reading I am wondering if I don't have a second tub,(yeah I know buy another tight arse...Talk to my wife! :oops: Jeez!) can I just bottle & CC or Lager in the bottle. What would be the best process if not racking??Any comments appreciated.Cheers Fred
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Ash
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Post by Ash »

well, you can just bottle it & drink it, it just won't be the same as if you lagered it.

Someone somewhere said lagering/cold conditioning is done pre-carbonation, but if naturally carbonating in a bottle won't this just undo the time it ages initially with the "new" (albeit small) carbonation ferment?


I recently made my first lager & like you I don't have a 2nd fermenter (well, anymore) - I just kegged it after 2 weeks like I would an ale & it came up fine.

Try it, if it isn't clear & crisp enough for you get that 2nd fermenter (or perhaps a cube?) & give it another shot - the only down side will be more beer to "dispose" of. :wink: :lol:
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Post by NTRabbit »

You can lager it in the bottle; I've done the same several times, no difference in taste that I've noticed
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Post by melbourne man »

what is lagering? is it just putting it in the fridge at 2-3 degrees for a couple of weeks? what does it do to the beer and what is a cube?
Fermenting Fred
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Post by Fermenting Fred »

Ash wrote:Try it, if it isn't clear & crisp enough for you get that 2nd fermenter (or perhaps a cube?) & give it another shot - the only down side will be more beer to "dispose" of. :wink: :lol:
Thanks for comments...Gee ya gotta love it when you only problem is to drink more beer to get it right! :lol:
Yeah what is a cube? or should I have searched the Jargon sticky :?
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James L
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Post by James L »

a cube is one of those plastic water containers usually about 20L - 25L... you can get them from hardware stores and camping store... you can put a tap on them, and they are great for use with racking...

I guess the reason why they are called cubes is the fact they are shaped like a cube (same height and width), and i think they are stackable...

Just means you eliminate the need to use your fermentors for secondary fermentation (racking), and can now use them for something much more important making more beers...
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melbourne man
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Post by melbourne man »

why cant a cube be used for primary
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Post by Kevnlis »

It can. All of my fermentors are cubes I bought from Bunnings. I drilled a hole in the top of the little cap and stuck in a $3 airlock from Biug W ;)
Prost and happy brewing!

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James L
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Post by James L »

i just find it a little tough to clean when used for primary... they do make excellent bulk priming vessels too.... If you have about 3 of these guys and a fermenter or two... your set....
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Trough Lolly
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Post by Trough Lolly »

melbourne man wrote:what is lagering? is it just putting it in the fridge at 2-3 degrees for a couple of weeks? what does it do to the beer and what is a cube?
Lagering is a term used to describe the process of slow maturation of beer at cold temps. The term lagering comes from the german word lager which means "to store". It's suggested that the first reference to lagering beer was found in Munich's town statues back in 1420.

To quote US beer writer Michael Jackson (and not the gloved one!):
The rivers that flow from the Bavarian Alps form broad, fertile valleys winding around small hills. The abbeys favored the isolation of hilltops, and carved beer cellars into the rock beneath. These could be packed with ice from the rivers, lakes and mountains. Some Munich brewers took their beer to ice-cold Alpine caves to store it during the summer for later use as needed. When stored (in German, lagered) in such cold temperatures during the summer months, the beer became inherently more stable. The yeast sank out of harm's way; empirically, the brewers were breeding bottom-fermenting cultures.
Of course, we can drink a lager beer as soon as we've finished primary fermentation, but you'll find that the beer will improve in flavour and complexity if you can leave it to condition further. To sound like a broken record, the key to making an excellent lager (in addition to fresh ingredients and excellent temperature control) is patience.
Once primary fermentation has concluded, the lager can be given a lengthy rest at cool temps to allow the bottom fermenting lager yeast to consume some of the more complex sugars present in the beer before they go dormant. It doesn't take much yeast to perform this task - you can rack (transfer) the primary fermented wort into a second vessel such as a cube or similar container and the suspended yeast in solution will take care of the conditioning task.
I generally ferment my lagers for 2 weeks in primary at 9-11C, give the beer a short diacetyl rest for a couple of days at 18C and then transfer to a keg for conditioning and lager the beer in the fridge at 4C for at least 2 months. It's a hell of a long time from the original mash, but IMHO, the effort's worth it. :wink:
Cheers,
TL
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Fermenting Fred
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Post by Fermenting Fred »

Soooo...To get back to my original question, & jump on the broken record band wagon, in your process Trough Lolly, if you weren't kegging when would you bottle(carbonate)? :? I understand that the beer will be drinkable bottled from the primary but i am trying to at least put some patience into this brew so i can really call it a Lager :roll:
Therefore; Ferment for 2 weeks in primary,(unfortunately shed is 12-14C)
Short diacetyl rest Then Rack to Cube(got one from the fresh wort kit so that's 15L of lager :D ) store/lager in fridge, Then bottle from cube??
I Know I originally said Lager in the bottle which I will do with the remaining 8L that won't fit in the cube.
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Post by Kevnlis »

James L wrote:i just find it a little tough to clean when used for primary... they do make excellent bulk priming vessels too.... If you have about 3 of these guys and a fermenter or two... your set....
I give them a good rinse then a soak in dishwashing detergent to dissovle all the caked on stuff then a golod rinse in bleach. Never had any problems!
Prost and happy brewing!

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James L
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Post by James L »

I guess that was a question that i had... Once you've done primary and diacetyl rest, can you then trasfer and chuck it straight into the fridge at 4C for a few weeks, or do you need to leave it at 8-12 for a little while before going to 4C?

Also, with CCing beers other than lagers, after 2 weeks in primary, can you just transfer and CC at 4C for a week or two, or would you leave it at 16-20 for a couple of days before going to 4C?

And you dont have to transfer again between secondary and CCing do you?
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Kevnlis
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Post by Kevnlis »

James L wrote:I guess that was a question that i had... Once you've done primary and diacetyl rest, can you then trasfer and chuck it straight into the fridge at 4C for a few weeks, or do you need to leave it at 8-12 for a little while before going to 4C?

Also, with CCing beers other than lagers, after 2 weeks in primary, can you just transfer and CC at 4C for a week or two, or would you leave it at 16-20 for a couple of days before going to 4C?

And you dont have to transfer again between secondary and CCing do you?
It is fine to transfer both directly to the fridge, you do not need to rack them again before you do this unless you plan to store them for a very long time (months).
Prost and happy brewing!

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James L
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Post by James L »

Cool

Thanks Kev... this is my first attempt at CCing.. i even had to turn the lager fridge down to 2C to try it out...

Another question.. I've also put a heap of bottled lager in the fridge to see whether the cold colditioning will help mellow out some of the flavours. If i leave it in there for about 2 or 3 weeks, can i then take it out a store is as per usual (in the shed), or do i need to just leave it in the fridge till they are consumed? I was hoping to slowly CC my stock of lager that i never CCed, but i dont have room for it all in my fridge...
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Kevnlis
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Post by Kevnlis »

James L wrote:Cool

Thanks Kev... this is my first attempt at CCing.. i even had to turn the lager fridge down to 2C to try it out...

Another question.. I've also put a heap of bottled lager in the fridge to see whether the cold colditioning will help mellow out some of the flavours. If i leave it in there for about 2 or 3 weeks, can i then take it out a store is as per usual (in the shed), or do i need to just leave it in the fridge till they are consumed? I was hoping to slowly CC my stock of lager that i never CCed, but i dont have room for it all in my fridge...
There is alot of debate over this. My understanding of general concensus is that CCing is for Ales and Lagering is for Lagers (easy enough) and it does you no good to CC or Lager after the beer has been bottled and fermented out. CCing and Lagering must be done in bulk to be truely helpful but it can work somewhat if done in bottles which are refrigerated immediately after being bottled.

Lagered and CCed beer does not have to be kept cold once the process has been completed, once the bottleds have finished off in the fridge (or the brew has been kegged) it can be stored at normal temperatures as far as I know.

As for mellowing out the flavour I think that will happen faster in warmer conditions not cooler.
Prost and happy brewing!

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Trough Lolly
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Post by Trough Lolly »

Fermenting Fred wrote:Soooo...To get back to my original question, & jump on the broken record band wagon, in your process Trough Lolly, if you weren't kegging when would you bottle(carbonate)? :? I understand that the beer will be drinkable bottled from the primary but i am trying to at least put some patience into this brew so i can really call it a Lager :roll:
Therefore; Ferment for 2 weeks in primary,(unfortunately shed is 12-14C)
Short diacetyl rest Then Rack to Cube(got one from the fresh wort kit so that's 15L of lager :D ) store/lager in fridge, Then bottle from cube??
I Know I originally said Lager in the bottle which I will do with the remaining 8L that won't fit in the cube.
Sorry about the delayed response - I've been on holidays!
Yep, bottle from the cube that's spent 2 months in the fridge lagering and you'll be fine. Some brewers add a few grains of dry yeast to each bottle when they bottle their lagers, but don't forget, a lagered lager (?!) at around 4C will be holding a lot of CO2 in solution so you should be drinking a carbonated beer, once its bottled. Of course, kegging takes the guesswork out of carbonating beer since we can force carbonate any beer regardless of whether the final produce has yeast or not.

Cheers,
TL
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Trough Lolly
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Post by Trough Lolly »

Kevnlis wrote:Lagered and CCed beer does not have to be kept cold once the process has been completed, once the bottleds have finished off in the fridge (or the brew has been kegged) it can be stored at normal temperatures as far as I know.

As for mellowing out the flavour I think that will happen faster in warmer conditions not cooler.
This is, as you say, debatable. Consider that unless you have a good filtering process, you will inevitably have yeast in the beer. Given that is the case, you want to look after the beer since we all know that trying to ferment a lager at warm temps will usually result in solventy fusels and fruity ester biproducts. Now, admittedly a beer that's been lagering for some time will be very stable, but I would recommend that a kegged lager will not benefit from being stored in "warmer" temps. This is the big difference between ale and lager yeast strains - the ale yeasts typically contribute a mild ester profile to the ale and that's actually quite typical of all decent real ales, a slightly fruity/estery profile. Ask real ale fans what the beer should taste like and they'll tell you that esters are part and parcel of a "real ale"...the cold fermented lager strains don't produce esters when fermented at lager temps, and thus lagers are often considered to be crisper, cleaner beers for this reason.
If possible, keep the kegged or bottled product as cool as possible - ideally, store the product in the fridge so it's ready to go when you are.
If fridge space is an issue and you really want to get into making crisp clean lagers, consider a flocculant lager strain or using a filter and keeping the lager in the coolest spot of the house.
Cheers,
TL
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Post by pacman »

Hi Trough Lolly,

Re your post of 10 August. Think you will find Michael Jackson was a Brit, although equally revered in US for his writings on beer.

See "A Sad Day For Us All" in General Discussion.
Cheers,

Pacman
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Trough Lolly
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Post by Trough Lolly »

Good point - I read many of his articles on a US website and assumed has was a yank...

We live and learn! RIP Jacko.

Cheers,
TL
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