Cidery taste!

[Shell]

Hi all,

Husband & I have tried the 2nd bottle from our first batch of Coopers Ale and although better then when we first tried it after only been in the bottle 2 weeks it still has a slight cidery taste. It was bottled 6weeks ago. It has definately improved and i'm hoping will continue to do so. It tasted almost vegemity at the first tasting. We basically just used what came in the Coopers starter kit including carb drops when bottling.

My question to you is this.. Will it always have this cidery taste? or will that disappear in time? Not having tried homebrew all that much I'm not sure if it just tastes like that or if we've done something wrong? We did stick to the instructions and I was confident with the temps for the yeast addition & the temps maintained for fermenting. Everything was cleaned & sanitised and the beer itself is of a good colour without any obvious signs of infection.

Any idea's?

[lethaldog]

Kits can tend to have a slight " home brew tang" and once you move up into extracts, partials and AG you will notice that this is no longer but it does have alot to do with the sorts of fermentables you use and what temps you brew at, also fluctuating temps are no good even if within the appropriate temp range.

Couple of questions:

What temp did you brew at?

What fermentables did you use? if it was the brewing sugar that comes with the kit then this could also account for the cidery taste as its mainly plain white sugar!

Did you add anything else at all such as specialty grains, ldme or hops? Im guessing no but these can greatly improve your beer!

What yeast was used? if it was the kit yeast then there are much better alternatives!

Just remember that its all a learning experience and none of us were experts when we started, once you get it down pat you will realise just how good it is

[Trough Lolly]

Hi all,

Husband & I have tried the 2nd bottle from our first batch of Coopers Ale and although better then when we first tried it after only been in the bottle 2 weeks it still has a slight cidery taste. It was bottled 6weeks ago. It has definately improved and i'm hoping will continue to do so. It tasted almost vegemity at the first tasting. We basically just used what came in the Coopers starter kit including carb drops when bottling.

My question to you is this.. Will it always have this cidery taste? or will that disappear in time? Not having tried homebrew all that much I'm not sure if it just tastes like that or if we've done something wrong? We did stick to the instructions and I was confident with the temps for the yeast addition & the temps maintained for fermenting. Everything was cleaned & sanitised and the beer itself is of a good colour without any obvious signs of infection.

Any idea's?

Hi Shell,
There's a bit of a momily going around that suggests that cidery flavours in beer are the result of too much sugar, especially sucrose, in your brew. The fact is that it's not the sugar, but the yeast, of course, that primarily influences the flavours added to any beer during fermentation. Some sugars do leave more dextrinous compounds, eg Belgian Sugar, Molasses etc, but simple sugars such as dextrose and sucrose, quickly ferment out early on in primary.
That said, it's likely that you may have fermented the beer too warm and if you followed the kit instructions, you may have done the beer a disservice by following the instructions. Ales ferment cleanly at 18C and lagers at 8-10C. You will get a lower perception of the cidery notes over time, but there's a possibility that some of the cidery flavours are present due to the fruity esters that the yeast threw off when you fermented it at 24C or more degrees.
Put it down to experience, keep good sanitation protocols and you'll be fine the next time 'round...
If you want an excellent primer on brewing, you might want to read Palmer's online brewing guide - despite a few questionable statements here and there, it's still a great starting guide:
http://www.howtobrew.com/intro.html
Cheers,
TL

[warra48]

Hi Shell,
John Palmer's 3rd edition of his book "How to Brew" is available at the local library in Port Mac. That's how I first came across it, and ended up buying my own copy. Why don't you ask them to reserve it for you?
It really is a very worthwhile read, even if you only use parts of the book as it applies to your current brewing regime, and ignore some of the more technical parts for now.
Trough Lolly's advice is always good and accurate, and you can totally trust anything he posts.

[Lachy]

Hi all,

Husband & I have tried the 2nd bottle from our first batch of Coopers Ale and although better then when we first tried it after only been in the bottle 2 weeks it still has a slight cidery taste. It was bottled 6weeks ago. It has definately improved and i'm hoping will continue to do so. It tasted almost vegemity at the first tasting. We basically just used what came in the Coopers starter kit including carb drops when bottling.

My question to you is this.. Will it always have this cidery taste? or will that disappear in time? Not having tried homebrew all that much I'm not sure if it just tastes like that or if we've done something wrong? We did stick to the instructions and I was confident with the temps for the yeast addition & the temps maintained for fermenting. Everything was cleaned & sanitised and the beer itself is of a good colour without any obvious signs of infection.

Any idea's?

G'day Shell,

I started homebrewing about a year ago, using the Cooper's kit, and I had exactly the same symptoms as you with my first batch. It was cidery, a bit harsh on the throat and honestly not my finest moment. It almost turned me off brewing, to tell the truth.

As others have said, temperature is key when brewing. Most kits seem to recommend fermentation at far too high a temperature, purely to expedite the brewing process. The result, as you have seen, is a cidery taste. This may improve over time, however it probably will never be a great beer.

Rest assured that Cooper's products themselves are sound, however their instructions are a little misleading at times. If you can keep the fermentation temp down in the high teens for ales, then you should be able to make some very tasty brews.

Good luck for your next brew.

[Trough Lolly]

Trough Lolly's advice is always good and accurate, and you can totally trust anything he posts.

...except for my footy tips - I suck at NRL tipping!

Cheers,
TL

[wildschwein]

Various types of sugar can lead to cidery tastes in homebrew beers even if fermented at lower temps. Too much rice malt syrup, sucrose, and maltodextrine can contribute to a cidery flavour. Sometimes this will dissapate after time in the bottle - but not always and not totally. Best thing to do is to use as much malt extract as you can afford in your extra fermentables. At least an extra 250-500g worth of malt extract in your kilo of fermentables will help to keep down the cider tastes.

I have found that dextrose and candi sugar each used in amounts not exceeding 500g in a 23L batch tend not to produce a cidery finish.

[Shell]

Wow.... Thanks everyone.

To answer a few of the questions we did only use what came in the starter kit so yes it was kit yeast, and yep to the brewing sugar that came with the kit. Also used coopers carb drops when bottling... Didnt add any specialty grains, IDME or hops. Basic Basic Basic is what we were thinking so I guess we were rewarded with a Basic Basic Basic beer.

I pitched the yeast at 26degs. The temp stayed steady at 22 degrees until about day 5, then went down to 18 and eventually 16 which is where it was sitting when we bottled.

We put down another batch pretty much straight away which was a Mex Cev but the HB store dude suggested adding a no 15 brew enhancer from brewcraft which we did do so hopefully that batch will be better. Its bottled but we'll leave that for awhile until we taste it.. Fingers crossed..

Thanks for the feedback all

[Kevnlis]

Brewcrafts BE15 sgould get you in the right direction. It has both cornsyrup and LDME in it. Though I am not sure it is the best choice for a Mexican Cerveza, it should help mask the solventy taste of the dex.

[rwh]

Er, the dex doesn't have solventy tastes... assuming it's used as a minority of the fermentables it's a completely neutral fermenting sugar. Corn syrup (maltodextrin) can give a soapy mouthfeel... and fermenting at too high a temperature or with too many amino acids present in your wort can give rise to fusels (higher order alcohols), which are solventy.

[Kevnlis]

Every time I use dextrose the brew comes out with a solventy taste, like cheap vodka sort of, hard to explain, but it certainly doesn't taste neutral to me.

[rwh]

Interesting... It certainly boosts the alcohol, and alcohol isn't undetectable. What strength were the beers that you noticed this in? Also, I think fluctuating, or high (say above 24°C) temperatures can boost fusel production...

[Trough Lolly]

Various types of sugar can lead to cidery tastes in homebrew beers even if fermented at lower temps. Too much rice malt syrup, sucrose, and maltodextrine can contribute to a cidery flavour. Sometimes this will dissapate after time in the bottle - but not always and not totally. Best thing to do is to use as much malt extract as you can afford in your extra fermentables. At least an extra 250-500g worth of malt extract in your kilo of fermentables will help to keep down the cider tastes.

I have found that dextrose and candi sugar each used in amounts not exceeding 500g in a 23L batch tend not to produce a cidery finish.

One thing I forgot to add....it's also a widely debated issue!
Agree unreservedly re maxing the use of malt extract on your recipe.

Cheers,
TL

[Kevnlis]

I am very careful about my temps. I have noticed it in all the Mexican Cerveza clones I have done where I have used high levels of dextrose to try to clone Corona. I have tried many recipes and methods, and some have come out nice, but they were the ones with 500g or less of dex, the rest had that taste of solvent I call it, but it is probably closer to a cheap vodka type flavour.

I did notice it in a Brewiser Pilsner kit I did with a kilo of dex as well, so maybe it is only apparent in the really light beers?

I understand that it is supposed to add alcohol without flavour and that is why it is popular to use, maybe it is more the fact that there is not the added flavour of the malt/dextrine to mask the alcohol flavour?

[Trough Lolly]

Temperature aside, you don't mention the yeast strain you are using to make this style of dry beer. Are you attempting to make Cerveza with dextrose and the basic kit yeast?

I suspect you're picking up the ethanol levels and your tastebuds are passing them off as solventy flavours?

Cheers,
TL

[Boonie]

Various types of sugar can lead to cidery tastes in homebrew beers even if fermented at lower temps. Too much rice malt syrup, sucrose, and maltodextrine can contribute to a cidery flavour. Sometimes this will dissapate after time in the bottle - but not always and not totally. Best thing to do is to use as much malt extract as you can afford in your extra fermentables. At least an extra 250-500g worth of malt extract in your kilo of fermentables will help to keep down the cider tastes.

I have found that dextrose and candi sugar each used in amounts not exceeding 500g in a 23L batch tend not to produce a cidery finish.

I agree, I was "Sampling" a few yesterday and came across my No 22 batch.....mmm That's nice I thought, went back to Recipe book, lo and behold Coopers Lager with 1kg Specialty Sugar and .5kg Malt Amarillo 60 Mins and Cascade 10 Minutes in boil of 4 Litres, stock yeast.

No Cidery taste in that one and was better than some of the "All Malts" I tested yesterday.

Cheers

Boonie

[rwh]

Yeah, I reckon it's just the old trap of too many simple sugars. Most brewers recommend that you don't use more than 15% adjuncts, because the simple sugars don't provide sufficient nutrition to the yeast, and they have to actually manufacture the nutrients they need, which brings biosynthetic pathways into action that produce compounds as byproducts that we perceive as off tastes. This is especially true for sucrose (as we all know), but also applies to dextrose and other simple sugars.

If you use a kilo of dex, your adjunct level is really getting up, to around 40%, which is real danger territory. I've only done one brew like that (my first), and I won't be repeating it!

What would happen if you added yeast nutrient, I'm not sure.

Now, if someone could only let CUB know about excessive adjuncts...

[Trough Lolly]

...well said, rwh!
As for CUB, they'll go for malt when it's cheaper than cane sugar!

Cheers,
TL

[wildschwein]

What would happen if you added yeast nutrient, I'm not sure.

It would probably solve some of the problems of developing off-tastes. And, it's probably what bigger breweries use in their cheapo adjunct beers.