Lager yeast starters???

[gibbocore]

Hey Blokes,

I have a wyeast budvar yeast that i've had for a while now and wold prefer to make a starter for and plus i generally prefer to make up a strong active starter anyways just for insurance reasons. Anyway, does anyone make their lager yeast starters at lager temps? Say for a munich lager i'm making, is it best to make up a starter wort, drop it to 14 degrees then pitch my yeast and get it firing at 14 degrees? Can anyone see any complications with doing this, or is it even necessary?

[James L]

I think you grow it at room temp... then you cool it down before you pitch it...

the high temps are only going to produce off flavours in the starter liquid (the majority of which you are goin to tip off before pitching), but apart from that you should be fine.

the higher temps will speed up replication.. so you're not waiting 2 weeks for you starter to grow up to a decent size...

[drsmurto]

The key point to remember is that when you make a starter you are making yeast, not beer.

Yeast prefer to get jiggy with it at temps we normally wouldnt brew at. 20+C. I routinely make my starters at 25C and then chill o/n in the fridge, pour off the beer and pitch only the slurry.

As for temps, the budvar yeast is much cleaner at temps below 14C. Check out the wyeast website.

If it was me, i would be using the Munich lager yeast (2308) or the Bavarian (2206).

Both on my list to purchase but Budvar is still my fave.

Cheers
DrSmurto

[gibbocore]

Yeah i'd prefer to use the bavarian but i had this floating around for some reason and thought it would still produce a european flavour and promote the melanoidens. However i thought the idea of pitching a yeast starter was so i'd be pitching an active yeast, wont it have gone dormant if i chill it?

[drsmurto]

All the o/n chill does it drop the yeast out of suspension enabling you to pour off the 'beer'. I take the starter out of the fridge the morning i am brewing to let the yeast come back to pitching temp and then pour off the beer and pitch into the wort at a similar temperature.

I know RWH has posted about cold pitching but cant find links and havent done that before.

The yeast comes back to life pretty quickly so no stress altho the Budvar strain has a long lag time (up to 3 days).

CHeers
DrSmurto

[gibbocore]

cheers dr!!

I might just get myself a bavarian lager one, i've used the whitelabs checzh pils before with disastrous results due to the lag time and fiddling with temps so i'd rather not have to dabble with that.

[rwh]

I know RWH has posted about cold pitching but cant find links and havent done that before.

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=26969

[gibbocore]

awesome, cheers!

Just have to do a bunch of F->C conversions now, haha...

Does anyone think it will reduce the chances of getting any diacetyl or off flavours?

[rwh]

Does anyone think it will reduce the chances of getting any diacetyl or off flavours?

What, cold pitching? All it does is increase yeast vigour. So off-flavours: perhaps. Diacetyl: no.

[hoohaaman]

I do exactly the same as Drsmurto.

Decant spent wort and pitch slurry

[gibbocore]

Does anyone think it will reduce the chances of getting any diacetyl or off flavours?

What, cold pitching? All it does is increase yeast vigour. So off-flavours: perhaps. Diacetyl: no.

does anyone have a method of pitching a lager yeast that will reduce diacetyl? I've read palmers and there are suggestions that pitching into a cold wort should, i just want to know if anyone has any tried methods. I have made 1 lager out of around 50 ales, needless to say the 1 lager scared me off a little.

[rwh]

Diacetyl rest?

[drsmurto]

Some yeast produce more diacetyl than others. Check out the wyeast site and have a read.

As rwh said, a diacetyl rest is the way to go, particularly if you pitch the yeast higher than ferment temps.

Ive been pitching the yeast at 10C and not bothered with a rest but that may just be the wyeast 2000 budvar being a low diacetyl producer?

[gibbocore]

cheers dr, will have a bit more of a read, want to get into doing some bavarian lagers this winter and just want to make sure i'm up to scratch before i come back on here requesting urgent advice

[drsmurto]

I should put a disclaimer in here and say i am an ale man who on the odd occasion brews a lager or 2.

So my advice is based on the experience of using 1 lager strain (wyeast 2000) and a hell of a lot of reading!

I will be buying 2124 and 2206 soon to make a few german pilsners and the odd dunkel and to expand my experience of liquid lager yeasts.

Every time i try a new liquid yeast i am amazed at how much character they provide a beer. 1187 is doing it for me right now.

[gibbocore]

haha, that's cool, i'll be interested to hear your lager processes though when you do one and hear how it comes out. Agree'd on the liquid yeasts, they're a staple for me now and are essential i believe to obtaining the right qualities per beer style you're after.

[James L]

I just think the main things to ensure you have minimal diacetyl production is to:

ensure you have a large starter... at least 2 cups of pure yeast for 20-24L
make sure you pitch at the fermenting temp, and
make sure the wort has been thoroughly aerated.

If you do all these... you shouldnt have a problem..

[rwh]

ensure you have a large starter... at least 2 cups of pure yeast for 20-24L

whoa! Where do you get two cups of pure yeast!? That'd be about how much there is in an entire yeast cake.

[James L]

exactly....

[kram]

Hey Gib probably a bit late for you, but I just had two 830 starters stepped from 50ml, 500ml to 3.5L going at room temp and chilled then pitched cold. edit: just thought i'd add, I poured off all starter liquid and pitched the slurry.

I've gotten all my advice from Jamil, he's got a good write up on MrMalty and here about yeast starters, yeast health and yeast count.

Anyway, he doesn't do diacetyl rests, advocates a 90 min boil, and pitchs cold ≤10° with a f---ing huge starter to prevent diacetyl production early on. James L is on the money.