Headspace in secondary?

[homebrewjapan]

I want to get a new bucket and use my current primary as a secondary. How to brew says:

It is important to minimize the amount of headspace in the secondary fermentor to minimize the exposure to oxygen until the headspace can be purged by the still-fermenting beer. For this reason, plastic buckets do not make good secondary fermentors unless the beer is transferred just as the primary phase is starting to slow and is still bubbling steadily. Five gallon glass carboys make the best secondary fermentors. Plastic carboys do not work well because they are too oxygen permeable, causing staling.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-4.html

That is putting me off using my current 25L plastic bucket primary as a secondary because it will be max 80% full and is plastic. Should I really be concerned about this - size/plastic?

[Kevnlis]

The plastic used for the bucket you are speaking of is very different to that used for the carboys. It is much thicker and much less oxygen permiable. If you tranfer to secondary (which you obviously feel is neccessary) before primary fermentation is finished and prime with 0.5g of sugar per litre of beer you should have no problems clearing the head space in ample time.

[squirt in the turns]

Ok... I know this whole racking thing is one of the most contentious issues in home brewing. The main concern of those who oppose the practice is the (greatly?) increased risk of infection, right?

I've been racking since my 3rd brew, 23 litres from a 30l primary fermenter into an identical 30l fermenter. I do this usually after 2 weeks, so a good few days after fermentation is finished, and I don't prime again until I bottle. No issues with infection so far - but with this technique is it only a matter or time? Any advice appreciated.

I thought that the transfer process disturbs the beer sufficiently to dislodge some disolved CO2 which accumulates in the head space (hence some bubbling through the secondar air lock for a while after racking).

[drsmurto]

As long as your sanitation regime is up to scratch then you are fine.

I like to condition my beers for a lengthy period in bulk. Doing this on the yeast cake is more of a risk IMO, hence i rack.

Like you, i rack after fermentation is complete, normally 2 weeks, into a 20 or 25L jerry/cube. I dont worry about headspace and the jerry/cube has been sanitised prior to racking the beer into it making sure i dont splash. The beer then stays in the jerry/cube for a minimum of 2 weeks at as close to 1C as practical (its also my beer fridge and yeast storage fridge) and anything up to 3 months.

[Kevnlis]

... No issues with infection so far - but with this technique is it only a matter or time?

No infection that you have noticed anyway. With this technique you are most certainly inviting nasties to thrive in your fermented beer. When racking to secondary you should always do so before the end of fermentation and priming sugar or krausened wort should be added.

[Bizier]

My main issue with racking is unnecessary oxidation of fermented beer. You guys with keg setups can purge your vessels, I am a lowly bottler.

[Kevnlis]

If done properly there should be little or no oxygen introduced into the beer. What little might get in, will mostly be mopped up by the yeast at the begining of the secondary fermentation.

[squirt in the turns]

Geez, I knew this would happen.... 2 of the big authorities on this forum give conflicting advice

Thank you drsmurto and Kevnlis for your views.

No infection that you have noticed anyway. With this technique you are most certainly inviting nasties to thrive in your fermented beer.

Indeed, perhaps I have infected my beer and haven't noticed (due to my "greenness" as a brewer, or even because the infection is so minor). I read somewhere (probably on this forum) that all home brewed beer is infected to some extent - it's impossible to prevent other organisms from getting in, we can only attempt to minimise their impact.

Kev, I agree that your method makes sense... I will take your advice into consideration. Now, to decide if my latest stout/porter type brew will benefit from racking anyway...

[Kevnlis]

Not really squirt. The kind of secondary bulk storage Doc is talking about will not really allow any infectious organisms to thrive. There are very few bacteria that are capable of any sort of real activity at 1C, and none that I am aware of that can survive in fermented beer, even if there is oxygen in the headspace

[squirt in the turns]

Thanks again Kev... but now I'm even more confused!

There are very few bacteria that are capable of any sort of real activity at 1C, and none that I am aware of that can survive in fermented beer, even if there is oxygen in the headspace

If there aren't any types of bacteia that can survive in fermented beer (even at room temp??), why do we worry about infection after fermentation has finished? When I read Doc's 1st reply, I did wonder specifically about the fact that the beer is kept close to freezing. Even if the nasties did get in during the transfer, the temp would keep them at bay. If Doc is kegging (are you, Doc?) then the beer never need be brought back up to fermenting temps again as it can be carbonated from a canister, right? Infection surely becomes almost a non-issue?

I, like Bizier, am a "lowly bottler" And my "cold conditioning" technique is to stick my racking fermenter in the same ice bath as my primary, but put bigger chunks of ice in (gives me temps around 10-15 degrees). If it gets infected then I guess it is once I bottle it and return it to room temp that the bacteria really goes to town?

Sorry guys, not trying to start any kind of confrontation, just trying to learn from the experience of the masters. And sorry to homebrewjapan for totally threadjacking!

[Kevnlis]

There are heaps of bacteria that can grow in fermented beer, just none that do well at 1C, AFAIK.

There are plenty that can grow well at 10-15C.

Just because there is oxygen in the headspace does not mean you will get an infection, in order to get an infection the organism has to overcome a lot of hurdles in beer. You can get infections in beer which has not had enough oxygen in it as well (this was common place during the early days of counterpressure bottling machines) as this will allow the anaerobes to florish. Yest is a very good competitor for nutrients, and is able to utilise the nutrients much more quickly than other organsisms. The ethanol it produces also helps to wipe out, or at least stress the competition. Even if the organism is able to overome all of these hurdles, it must be able to utilise larger chain sugars, or ethanol as it's primary energy source.

In short, if you are careful not to introduce too much oxygen, you have good sanitation, and you use a bit of common sense, you will probably be able to keep the nasties at a level which is not detectable in the final product.

[drsmurto]

Nothing to add that Kev hasnt already covered and covered well.

As you suspected Squirt, i rack to a secondary container and then its straight into the conditioning fridge at 1C or thereabouts (apart from the time said fridge was switched off by mistake and the jerry swelled up liek a balloon......). Stays there till a keg is free at which point it is racked cold and force carbed immediately.

At this point i either put it into the keg fridge and tap it or allow it to warm back up and store it inside at ambient temps (15-20C). As it is now full of CO2 its chance of an infection is virtually nil. Not many bugs can survive a CO2 atmosphere.

Back in the kit days prior to kegging and prior to a conditioning fridge i did as Kev suggested and added a source of sugar (usually a few tbsp of dex in boiling water) to the beer in secondary to get a CO2 'blanket' in the secondary vessel which was just another fermenter at that stage.

[homebrewjapan]

My main reason for putting this beer into a secondary is because I want to add dried orange peel and coriander. I've heard that I shouldn't put this into the primary; instead I should put it into another bucket and then rack from the primary to the secondary.

So general advice then seems to be to add put a little sugar dissolved in boiling water into the secondary with the peel/coriander and then rack from the primary? Or would you think it better to just add the peel and coriander to the primary?

[drsmurto]

I dont see why you cant add it to primary.

[Kevnlis]

This is another one of those HB myths. Coriander does not kill yeast! I am certain of it

[Bizier]

I have used in last few mins of boil with good results.

[homebrewjapan]

I have used in last few mins of boil with good results.

Bit too late to boil now, fermentation is already done

[Bizier]

Bit too late to boil now, fermentation is already done

No... this is easy. You can still make a little mini boil with your spices, add a little sugar if you are worried about extra liquid dropping the gravity.

[Trough Lolly]

G'day all,
An intreresting thread, for sure...I used to swear by racking to secondary; would not think the beer was properly finished unless I did....until I took delivery of 8 kegs and now all the beer is moved under CO2 - from fermenter to keg, via filter. Doc's method goes a long way to dodging the infection bullet by conditioning very cold - and probably turning any ale yeast dormant, especially at 1C or thereabouts but that's another angle yet to be fully debated.
I agree with Kev that using a secondary fermenter is laying down a big infection challenge to the brewgods, and with all due respect, it's much more likely to occur for the beginning brewer who may not quite have their sanitation protocols sorted. That said, try it, and honestly evaluate the final product to see if it's worth the effort. Until you've got a kegging system, I'd stick to bottling from primary and being a bit more patient before you knock the top of a bottle.

Better to wait an extra 4 weeks than try to accelerate the process (at room temps) only to find that you've infected your hard earned beer. Why?...Ever had one of those moments when you've unearthed a bottle of beer that you made a year or so ago - chilled it, opened it and it tasted damn good? That's why...

Cheers,
TL