Dismal TTL Clone

[mike_hifi]

Put this on recently and am now sampling after 4 weeks:

2kg Light Liquid Malt (hbs)
500g DME
225g Lyles Golden Syrup
150g Caraamber grains, steeped
500g Morgans Caramalt
5g Gypsum

30g Fuggles 60 min
25g East Kent Goldings 20 min
25g Styrian Goldings 20 min
10g Styrian Goldings added to 1/2 cup boiling water then microwaved for 30 secs added at rack

5g Irish Moss 10 mins
Packet of yeast 10 mins (nutrient)

Danster Nottingham yeast, rehydrated with 2tspns sugar

Racked to secondary after 6 days.
Bulk primed with 70g dextrose - based on secondary volume of 21 litres.

It has come out to be the most watery, tasteless beer I've made. It's probably bit lower gravity than I'd normally make but not by that much.

Is this a common effect of Nottingham yeast? I hope not as I've just put another one down that I normally use S04 for but used Nottingham instead.

Any ideas why my TTL clone turned out so dull? I tried to match the gravity and bitterness, hop style etc from recipes posted up here.

Cheers,

Mike

[mike_hifi]

Answered my own question, I think. After rechecking my Beersmith recipe last night, I discovered that the default entry for 'Light Liquid Malt' assumes it is pre-hopped extract. The result of this is that I have under hopped quite markedly, especially at bittering stage.
I think this one might be chalked up to experience.....

Mike

[drsmurto]

I would have thought that bittering schedule would have achieved a decent amount of IBU.

If you were to repeat it i would replace the sugar with DME, and use S-04 or a good liquid yeast.

irish moss isnt needed for extract, even with spec grains as you arent mashing.

Add the styrian goldings at flameout, not EKG. TTL has the aroma of stryians. not EKG.

If i was doing extract i would use all LME plus some steeped crystal malt, caraamber would be fine, maybe even caraaroma.

Fuggles at 60
EKG at 20
Stryians at 0

TTL is a dry, malty bitter so adding sugar and using nottingham will counteract the sweetness of the malt extract.
I personally dont like nottingham but in this case i dont think thats where i would be pointing the finger.

If you think it lacks bitterness then maybe you have done a high gravity boil? Can you explain your process a little more please?

Cheers
DrSmurto - TTL nutter

[Bizier]

TTL is a dry, malty bitter so adding sugar and using nottingham will counteract the sweetness of the malt extract.
I personally dont like nottingham but in this case i dont think thats where i would be pointing the finger.

An idea is to use S04 for the esters, around 20 degrees, and then pitch US05 after krausen drops and let it tidy up and dry it out a little.

[mike_hifi]

I normally do a 12 litre boil but not all fermentables are in. The schedule from beersmith (revised after LLME issue sorted) gave me 21 IBU, way below where it should be.

I had an idea TTL was a bit drier, hence the Lyles and Nottingham. Plus Nottingham is on the same side of the country as wehre TTL is from I think

The hops added at rack were in fact Styrians, just didn't type recipe properly!

Cheers,

Mike

[drsmurto]

21 IBU is very low.

What was the OG? i suspect you are under the 1.045 i would be aiming for.

[mike_hifi]

No, for a 23l batch I was about 1044, so pretty close.

[tazman67]

What where your hop A/As ? Where were your hops from ? For my 2C worth...there is only yeast to use...Wyeast 1469. This is a limited release. But some of us have either slanted it, farmed it, or put it away until the next release. I dont think I could do this with a dry Yeast. DrSmuto may have an alternate liquid yeast to use ?

[drsmurto]

I bought 2 packs of 1469 when it was released.

Still using the yeast from the 1st pack!

I have a TTL on tap now that used ringwood (wyeast 1187) that has got some good reviews from fellow brewers.

[brewbeast]

so um...what's TTL?

[warra48]

so um...what's TTL?

Timothy Taylor Landlord.
It's a British Ale.

[drsmurto]

Some would argue its THE british ale

[warra48]

Some would argue its THE british ale

I'll believe you Dr, but unfortunately it is one I have never as yet had the good fortune to try.

[drsmurto]

Linky

Bit pricey tho....

[brewbeast]

cool...will have to see if firstchoice has it

[Trough Lolly]

I normally do a 12 litre boil but not all fermentables are in. The schedule from beersmith (revised after LLME issue sorted) gave me 21 IBU, way below where it should be.

I had an idea TTL was a bit drier, hence the Lyles and Nottingham. Plus Nottingham is on the same side of the country as wehre TTL is from I think

The hops added at rack were in fact Styrians, just didn't type recipe properly!

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike,
Apologies if you already know this, but you don't use all the fermentables in a small boil anyway. If you did, you reduce the bittering potential of the hops that you used - and as Doc has pointed out, you had plenty of hops. FWIW, I would have steeped the grains in a couple of litres of water, sparging with another litre or so and then topping up the 12L pot with water and the 2kg of light liquid malt. I would have done a one hour boil, adding small quantities of hot water to compensate for any evaporation - and maximising the bittering potential of the 30g of Fuggles, but keeping a good rolling boil at all times. I would have added the DME and Lyles with about 5 mins to go in the boil. I like Nottingham ale yeast - in Irish Reds...

Agree with Doc that styrians is the aroma profile in TTL - trust me, I had one last night to remind myself what it smells like!! Link... One thing that works for me is to add the aroma addition, as a dry hop addition at about day 3 or 4 of the primary ferment - when the krausen has subsided and the brew is much less likely to push all those lovely aromas out of your airlock.

Cheers,
TL

[mike_hifi]

I normally do a 12 litre boil but not all fermentables are in. The schedule from beersmith (revised after LLME issue sorted) gave me 21 IBU, way below where it should be.

I had an idea TTL was a bit drier, hence the Lyles and Nottingham. Plus Nottingham is on the same side of the country as wehre TTL is from I think

The hops added at rack were in fact Styrians, just didn't type recipe properly!

Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike,
Apologies if you already know this, but you don't use all the fermentables in a small boil anyway. If you did, you reduce the bittering potential of the hops that you used - and as Doc has pointed out, you had plenty of hops. FWIW, I would have steeped the grains in a couple of litres of water, sparging with another litre or so and then topping up the 12L pot with water and the 2kg of light liquid malt. I would have done a one hour boil, adding small quantities of hot water to compensate for any evaporation - and maximising the bittering potential of the 30g of Fuggles, but keeping a good rolling boil at all times. I would have added the DME and Lyles with about 5 mins to go in the boil. I like Nottingham ale yeast - in Irish Reds...

Agree with Doc that styrians is the aroma profile in TTL - trust me, I had one last night to remind myself what it smells like!! Link... One thing that works for me is to add the aroma addition, as a dry hop addition at about day 3 or 4 of the primary ferment - when the krausen has subsided and the brew is much less likely to push all those lovely aromas out of your airlock.

Cheers,
TL

Thanks TL - normally leave most of the fermentables out of my 12L boils. I usually aim for the same boil gravity as if I was doing a full volume boil. As for aroma, I tend to go for a 10 min addition AND a dollop at rack to secondary as well. I like my hops ..

I haven't remade this yet. I need to get my skates on as it was going to be my entry in the Samford Show HB Comp!!

I have since made another ESB with Nottingham, bit interested to see how it compares to S04.

Cheers,

Mike