Astringent Bitter Taste

[mike_hifi]

I seem to have a recurring problem with my brews coming out with an overpowering astringent bitterness. This has happened recently with a number of different styles and yeasts.

I thought it was a problem with my steeping technique for specialty grains, so I've made a couple of batches without them, same result.

I thought it might have been from not rinsing out sodium meta-bi (I have tank water so don't trust the water for a rinse) so have switched to a no-rinse sanitiser (Peroxide and Silver ion based), same result.

I'm a bit of a hop freak and thought it might have been too many hops too late in the brew, so have dropped my hopping rates back, same result.

The taste is like a dry, puckering sort of effect. Tastes at first like bitterness but then gets a late edge to it that is not pleasant.

I'm about to go and buy a new fermenter to see if there something stuck in there I can't shift. Although it gets a good wash nappy-san (with rinse) after each use.

My current recipe is something like below:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 24.00 L
Boil Size: 12.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.052 SG
Estimated Color: 33.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 32.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 45 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item
1.70 kg Coopers Lager (5.9 EBC)
1.50 kg Unhopped Extra Pale (4.0 EBC)
0.75 kg Coopers Dark Ale (230.0 EBC)
5.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (20 min)
10.00 gm Cascade [5.50 %] (20 min)
10.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] (5 min)
0.25 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC)
0.05 kg Molasses (157.6 EBC)

Any clues anybody? I have had some success at local competitions previously but now don't seem to be able string two good brews together.

Mike

[drsmurto]

The 0.75kg of coopers dark ale is 1/2 a tin of the hopped extract?

If so i would think that your total IBU is probably in the 35-40 zone which may be what you are tasting. Lingering bitterness can have quite a mouth puckering effect, a bit like sucking on a used teabag...

I'll let the kit brewers crunch the numbers for you - cant put my hands on the IBU of the kits plus i would need to know your boil gravity to calculate the effect of the extra hops.

[bullfrog]

I would have jumped right to hop utilisation. How do you boil your hops?

[mike_hifi]

Beersmith suggests my IBU will be 32.3, as shown in the original post. I have entered the Coopers cans in as BS ingredients based on info from the coopers website and tinkered to get the resultant IBU to match.

I did a 12litre boil, with all fermentables in, other than Coopers Lager at flameout. According to Beersmith, a pre boil gravity of 1.063. Perhaps a little high given my SG is 1.052 but that should have pushed bitterness down, if anything.

Yes, the Dark Ale is a hopped Coopers can. I try to structure my brews to what I can get from my local supermarket & mail order any low weight items such as hops. Getting to the hbs isn't all that easy for me. This was meant to be a James Squire Amber Ale clone.

I really don't think it's hops. I have made Cascade/Amarillo beers before with much higher rates than this and didn't have this problem.

What is the best no rinse sanitiser? I've seen Ross recommending StarSan on this forum - is this the go?

Mike

[Anna]

Hi Mike!
I ran your recipe thru BrewMate using the IBUs for the Coopers cans given in the sticky "IBUs for Coopers" (Pg 2 I think), halving the given IBU for your half can of Dark Ale. Here is what I got:

IBU: 58.5
OG: 1.055
FG: 1.013
ABV: 5.53%
Balance Value: 2.43

Could it be that your "tinkering" with the Coopers figures is a bit out of whack? Have a read of the whole thread of that sticky referred to above. There was quite a discussion about what formula to use, but in the end it was decided to use the formula which gave higher IBUs for the kits. The IBUs I punched into BrewMate were (from the Sticky):

Lager: 28.8
1/2 can Dark Ale: 43.6 / 2 = 21.8
Then with all your hop additions, it brings it up to the 58.5 for a 24L brew.

No wonder you're puckering up!

Anna

[mike_hifi]

Hmm, very different to what I get from Beersmith?

In Beersmith you have to model up the amount of hops in the 'extract' to give the same IBU as the kit. Coopers publish their IBU's by what is in the can, not how it will turn out once you've mixed up a whole batch.

I enter Coopers lager as a 'hopped' extract with 28g of 5% Alpha hops per 1.7kg. In a batch size of 1.7L that gives me 390IBU, which is what the Coopers website says. I enter Dark Ale as a hopped extract with 56g of 5% Alpha for IBU of 590IBU.

The recipe then comes out as 32.3 IBU.

Did you boil the Dark Ale in your BrewMate recipe?

I also got an OG of 1055 - a little higher than yours?

The hops are only boiled for 20 mins and less, so should only be contributing flavour and aroma, not much bitterness.

[mike_hifi]

OK. I have reverse engineered Beersmith so that when I add 1.7kg of Coopers Lager to water to get a 23l batch, I get 28.8 IBUs. And Dark Ale to get 43.6, both as per the sticky. Makes for a serious 'hopped extract' in Beersmith but hey!

Even with these revised settings it has still only come up as 43IBU for the entire recipe. High, yes, but only just out of style for an American Amber Ale.

Doesn't really explain the taste, still.

Mike

[Anna]

The generally accepted formula for Coopers IBU kits (on this forum anyway) is:

Using the formula: IBU of tin*1.7/23

Beer = IBU on can = IBU (based on 23L)
Lager = 390 = 28.8
Draught = 420 = 31.0
Dark Ale = 590 = 43.6
Real Ale = 560 = 41.4
Stout = 710 = 52.5
Pale Ale = 340 = 25.1
Mex Cerveza = 270 = 20.0
Can Blonde = 420 = 31.0
English Bitter = 590 = 43.6
Euro Lager = 340 = 25.1
Heritage Lager = 390 = 28.8
IPA = 710 = 52.5
Irish Stout = 560 = 41.4
Aust Bitter = 495 = 36.6
Pilsner = 420 = 31.0
Sparkling Ale = 490 = 36.2
Trad Draught = 420 = 31.0
Wheat Beer = 300 = 22.2

In BrewMate, to enter a kit IBU, you first enter a "fake" hop (I use POR) at a 60min boil & fiddle with the amount until it reaches the IBU of the kit given above, eg. for the Lager 28.8 IBUs.

Then the same with the half can of Dark Ale, which I entered as 43.6/2 = 21.8 IBUs.

You then key in your additional hops, which in your case add another 9.1 IBUs.
My OG was 1055, the same as yours.

Think back to when you starting having this bitterness problem - was it when you started keying kits into Beersmith? It seems a logical explanation because if you are adjusting recipes in Beersmith using lower IBUs for Coopers kits than you should, all your brews would be too bitter.

Anna

[Anna]

My last post must have crossed yours. I just noticed that in your first post you said you made a 24L batch. That, of course, would change the formula to IBU of tin*1.7/24, not 23L, so for Lager you would have to enter 27.6 IBU, and for the half can of DA, 20.9 IBU, plus the 9.1 for the additional hops. That still only changes the total IBU slightly, to 57.6 anyway.

I don't understand how Beersmith can come up with a total IBU of only 43. Surely it's only a simple addition. I haven't used Beersmith, and it's apparently more complicated than BrewMate, so maybe someone can explain.

[mike_hifi]

In some ways it's easier to do all extract (or grain) brews - at least you know what you're dealing with!

[Anna]

Haven't graduated to that yet, but yes, that does seem to be the consensus!

Actually, your post was a bit of a wake-up call to me, as my next brew was going to be a toucan of Dark Ale and Pale Ale, with a total IBU (according to BrewMate) of around 69.9 ! (Recipe from the Coopers website) The good Dr Smurto did warn me some time ago that it would be pretty bitter, but after reading your post, I've changed my mind about brewing it. I haven't brewed anything yet over about 45 IBU and I've got an idea it may go to waste. OH and I like our beer somewhere around 30-35. I'd still like to do a toucan but now I'm thinking of maybe a Pale Ale/Cerveza with some late Cascade additions.

[drsmurto]

Cant help with which program works best for kit calcs, so many variables including how you translate the numbers from the side of the tins of hopped extract to boil volumes, boil gravities etc etc.

The one thing i will note that you can't clone James Squire Amber Ale using cascade and amarillo.

JSAA uses williamette as the finishing hops - used to list it on the bottle from memory.

Amarillo is in their golden ale.

EDIT - I agree Mike, full volume boiling without hopped kits makes the calculations a lot simpler!

SECOND EDIT - Anna, you need to look at balance rather than simply IBU. I have a beer on tap that is 54 IBU and is perfectly balanced. It's a german ale (dusseldorf altbier) and everyone who has tasted it is amazed to hear its 54 IBU.

[Anna]

Yes Doc, now I remember you did say that the DA/PA toucan should be a nicely balanced beer! Hmmm, maybe I'll try it after all - I've already bought the cans - and some EKG for late addition - and S04 to replace the kit stuff. By all accounts on the Coopers website too, it IS a pretty smooth drop!

[SuperBroo]

Come on Anna - move to the dark side, have a go at AG

[Anna]

Yeah, yeah - when I retire!

[mike_hifi]

Doc - I was sceptical about Amarillo/Cascade as a JS Amber Ale recipe until I tried it. It seems the darker malts take some of the citrus tang out. I first tried one that a friend made at a 'Brew By You' place, made me change my recipe!

[Bum]

I'm wondering why people are presuming astringency is caused simply by IBU...

[Tipsy]

I'm wondering why people are presuming astringency is caused simply by IBU...

What are your thoughts Bum?

[earle]

OK. I have reverse engineered Beersmith so that when I add 1.7kg of Coopers Lager to water to get a 23l batch, I get 28.8 IBUs. And Dark Ale to get 43.6, both as per the sticky. Makes for a serious 'hopped extract' in Beersmith but hey!

These settings are just your starting point. To see what I mean add 1.7kg dark ale to 23L batch, you will get 43.6 IBU. Now add some liquid malt extract and watch the IBU drop. This happens because the additional fermentables affect the IBU calculation that we try to trick with kits. Your brew IBU is still 43.6 in reality.

To over come this problem in Beersmith
Add your kit/s
Add all other fermentables
Double click the kit/s in your recipe and adjust the imaginary hops upwards to correct your IBU back to what it should be. In the case of you posted recipe (24L)it should be 1.7 kg Lager 27.6 IBU plus 0.75 dark ale 18.4IBU. Doesn't really matter which kit you adjust but total IBU at this stage should be 46.
Add you hop schedule to get your final IBU.

Even though I use Beersmith I sometimes check my final IBU by adding the known listed IBU for the kit (see Anna's post) to the hop IBU contributions calculated by Beersmith.

In terms of astringent taste you certainly have a high IBU but it could be the large amount of isohop from the kits.

Hope this helps
Earle

[Bum]

What are your thoughts Bum?

I've never had this issue myself so none of my thoughts are probably worth all that much. With that in mind, most of the causes of astringency that I'm aware of are grain related but with the recipe from the first post this clearly can't be the source. This leaves some sort of bacterial infection as a possibility (somewhat backed up by Mike's suggestion that this flavour is going across numerous brews). Not saying it is an infection just that is an option to explore.

I can assure you that it is entirely possible to make a high IBU kit beer without astringency ruining the beer.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it I've read some reports of people saying oxidised beers can taste a little astringent. Any chance you're maybe cutting some corners, Mike, that might be oxidising your brews?

Good luck with tracing the problem.