Teach me about yeast, Yoda

[MagooMan]

I'm wondering why I seem to have fairly frequent problems with yeast...about 40 % of the time, even though i ensure that the wort is within the temperature range when pitching ( admittedly at the lower end in an attempt to minimise that cidery fruit taste ) my yeasts are often slowstarting...and need to be roused on the second day with a good shaking and/or hot water poured over the sides of the fermenter. yes I make an effort to ensure constant temperatures, yes I have tried making a yeast starter without too much success, and no i don't make a point of crappy yeasts, i have used safale, coopers kit yeasts among others....any ideas or am i just doing something really dumb...please dont laugh

[Ned]

When you say "yes I have tried making a yeast starter without too much success" can you expand on this a little more please, because a yeast starter is a really good way speed up the start of fermentation.

if you like you can check Grumpys for a step by step process on creating a starter...

[shane_vor]

persist with the starter idea and keep the temps down, as you have in the wort.

Once you build a starter up to a decent volume, things should go nuts once pitched into the wort.

As a guide, I 'start' a starter in a stubbie, then a 1.25 soft drinkk bottle, then a darwin stubbie, then pitch. Never had a drama with this process, it's a bit of a pain but ensures a quick start to ferment.

[The Carbonator]

(People are gonna think im working for White Labs soon)

Ive said it before, and I'll say it again.

I reckon the best improvement i've made to my brews is liquid yeast:

- buy liquid yeast
- Sanitise a 2L coke bottle
- chuck in 150g Dry malt, 1.5L water, and yeast - (yes, you should measure these - buy cheap scales)
- Shake Vigourisly
- cover lid with elastic band and glad wrap - I drilled a hole in a lid and put an airlock in it
- After 3-4 days, sanitise 5-6 stubbies
- pour starter into stubbies.


You now have 6 starters. Store em in the fridge.
Usually, because im a tight arse, i'll repeat this using a stubbie starter. And now I have heaps of yeast starters in the fridge.

[Ed]

MagooMan, it could just be that you're not introducing enough oxygen to the wort before pitching. It is most important to ensure a good kick off to fermentation.

A couple of things worth trying that your yeast will appreciate:

1) Rehydrate the packet yeast in boiled cooled water for 1/2 hr before pitching. Keep it covered with cling wrap.

2) Dump the wort and water into the fermenter through a large sieve. Get your spoon and vigorously stir and splash the wort until it foams. This should introduce enough oxygen.

3) Maybe add 1/2 teaspoon of epsom salt to the fermenter. It's beneficial.

You can try starters from liquid brewers yeasts if you want, but it isn't essential unless you after a particular flavour profile that requires it. Packet yeasts of 11.5 gms will be good enough to cope with starting gravities of around 1.050. If making lagers or higher gravity ales, then pitch another packet.

Try these simple things and I'm sure you'll get huge improvements.

Cheers, Ed

[Rubber.Piggy]

Just make sure you are not relying on your airlock to say there is no activity. If uou have a leak the yeast could be going nuts and you wouldn't know it. SG is the only way to know for sure.

My airlocks never bubble, but the SG drops like a rock.

[MagooMan]

You guys rock...thanks for all the technical advice...have picked up a lot of pointers...will go back to emptying my tallie of VB in the interests of increasing my empty bottle collection!

[chris.]

MagooMan, it could just be that you're not introducing enough oxygen to the wort before pitching. It is most important to ensure a good kick off to fermentation.

A couple of things worth trying that your yeast will appreciate:

1) Rehydrate the packet yeast in boiled cooled water for 1/2 hr before pitching. Keep it covered with cling wrap.

2) Dump the wort and water into the fermenter through a large sieve. Get your spoon and vigorously stir and splash the wort until it foams. This should introduce enough oxygen.

3) Maybe add 1/2 teaspoon of epsom salt to the fermenter. It's beneficial.
You can try starters from liquid brewers yeasts if you want, but it isn't essential unless you after a particular flavour profile that requires it. Packet yeasts of 11.5 gms will be good enough to cope with starting gravities of around 1.050. If making lagers or higher gravity ales, then pitch another packet.

Try these simple things and I'm sure you'll get huge improvements.

Cheers, Ed

Wise words Ed.
I always rehydrate dried yeast. As for oxygenation according to Fermentis it's not really necessary. Having said that I always aerate my wort before pitching. I havent heard of using epsom salts, I prefer a yeast nutrient.

If your using dry yeast I'd strongly recommend not making a starter. It can cause more harm than good. If you want to get the cell count up pitch 2 packets.

[Tipsy]

If your using dry yeast I'd strongly recommend not making a starter. It can cause more harm than good. If you want to get the cell count up pitch 2 packets.

What do you mean by "can cause more harm than good"?
I've never heard this advice before.

[The Carbonator]

You can try starters from liquid brewers yeasts if you want, but it isn't essential unless you after a particular flavour profile that requires it.
Cheers, Ed

Yeah, I did mean that the main difference was in the flavour.

But, my most vigourous ferments have all been from starters. Never had a stuck ferment from a starter.
A good starter of a fresh yeast never hurts.

And Chris, im curious too...

[Ed]

My understanding is that the dried yeast manufactures go to the trouble of introducing nutrients. These would be consumed in the starter and therefore be of no further benefit as they were originally intended. Dried yeasts really just need to be hydrated and for not much longer than 1/2 hr. Tried to find the link where there was a heap of info on this but couldn't locate it, sorry.

Chris, I just use the magnesium sulphate because it's cheap, my water is very low in it, and it's required for metabolism. I would guess the nutrient you use would be better again, but so far haven't seen the need.

Cheers, Ed

[chris.]

My understanding is that the dried yeast manufactures go to the trouble of introducing nutrients. These would be consumed in the starter and therefore be of no further benefit as they were originally intended. Dried yeasts really just need to be hydrated and for not much longer than 1/2 hr.

This is my understanding too Ed.

Also most dry yeasts (ale yeasts in particular) are packaged with an adequate cell count to be pitch straight into a 5gal batch (dependant on the temperature & gravity of the wort). By pitching this amount of yeast into a smaller wort (<2L) you can stress the yeast, limiting their growth/reproduction, & also reduce the viability of the yeast.

Some links of interest:

http://byo.com/feature/1098.html

http://www.mrmalty.com/pitching.php

http://www.windriverbrew.com/text/YEAST.TXT

http://njmr.com/sparrowhill/Yeast%20Pro ... enance.pdf

[Oliver]

Just make sure you are not relying on your airlock to say there is no activity. If uou have a leak the yeast could be going nuts and you wouldn't know it. SG is the only way to know for sure.

My airlocks never bubble, but the SG drops like a rock.

I'd second this. I doubt very much that pouring water down the outside of the fermenter will do anything to promote fermentation, given the large volume of wort you're dealing with.

What's probably happening is that the air in the headspace of the fermenter is expanding as it is heated by the boiling water, forcing it out the airlock and giving the impression that you're promoting fermentation.

Smoke and mirrors stuff

Oliver

[MagooMan]

Ta Oliver...like an idiot i used to think that a farting airlock equalled fermentation...have actually just started using hydrometers again...now i wont subject my brews to that damaging hot water on the sides of the fermenter...
btw how much fermenting beer do people usually lose per brew for testing...? ie the sum total that is poured into the test jar to read with the hydrometer?

[blandy]

As a huge overestimate of the wasteage. budget on this:

two OG measurements
four FG measurements (as in keep going until you get two the same)

so multiply the volume of your test flask by six and you've got it. I'd say you would have thrown out a stubby's worth at the most.

[velophile]

As a huge overestimate of the wasteage. budget on this:

two OG measurements
four FG measurements (as in keep going until you get two the same)

so multiply the volume of your test flask by six and you've got it. I'd say you would have thrown out a stubby's worth at the most.

You also get to taste, ie drink, the test sample. So I don't see it as "wasted".

At least I do......

that is normal...........

isn't it...........

[Cat]

I think for my first brew I went a bit nuts with the hydrometer and ended up using up a litres worth of brew! Then again, I was paranoid and silly and I've learned better now I'm sure!

I did drink from my hydrometer as well velo, so no harm done there

[steveo]

You can't tip beer out! You gotta drink all of it, including all the samples!

[WSC]

I just stirred my fermenter after bottling and bottled the sediment from the dregs.

Can I make a starter from this for the next brew?

I plan to add malt etc to get it going again.

It was a german lager yeast, brewed at under 15 degrees for approx. 2 weeks.

[rwh]

Can I make a starter from this for the next brew?

Seeing as you can make a starter from the yeast in the bottom of a commercial coopers bottle, I really think there would be no problem with making one from the yeast slurry, at least in terms of the population of yeast.

Note however, that there are techniques for removing the yeast from the trub that might be worth trying. They're in here under section III part 3:

Yeast Information and Technique Resource

That doc is the most in-depth resource I've found on the technique for yeast culturing. It's quite an eye-opener if you read the whole thing, and gives you a good idea why it's so much easier/cheaper to buy yeast from the professionals ;)