Pain in the Glass

[andbrew]

I bottled a wheat beer 2 weeks ago (basic kit, hop teabag, wheat beer yeast, dex/maltodetrin)

Now I notice every stubbie has a ring around the top and a film over that. I've searched here and guess it is acetobacter or lactose bacter. I opened one and it tasted OK (but obviously very young). Here's my question and observation.

1. Are they safe to drink and does the infection get worse over time? (no gushing when I opened; just tasted like normal 2 week old home brew so I want to leave it a few months till summer; good idea?)

2. I observed that the 5 coopers pet bottles containing the same brew has NO scum ring or film. Both glass and plastic sanitised the same way. I'm puzzled.

Thanks for any responses.

[Chris]

What did you use for carbonation?

Also, there are no pathogens that can survive in beer, so as long as the beer tastes fine you have no problem. On that note, I'd drink them as soon as you can, which is no real problem, as wheat beers are best drunk fresh anyway.

[Kevnlis]

I assume by Lactose Bacter you mean Lactobacillus? Where has the Lactose come from?

I think it is more likely that it is Acetobactor which metabolise alcohol into acetic acid (vinegar) in the presence of oxygen. I would do as Chris has suggested and drink them quickly. If they taste fine they are safe to drink. I wuld also have a look at your sanitation and make sure you do all you can to keep oxygen from getting into the fermentor/bottles. Make sure your lid is sealed properly and you bottle as soon as fermentation has finished. Use a little bottler to minimise dissolving oxygen into the bottled beer. Give that fermentor a good scrub and a soak in sanitiser. Also make sure you scrub the bottles well after use and sanitise them as best you can.

[James L]

I have noticed a ring around the air/liquid interface on a few of my bottles once apon a time... they were all found on green bottles... never brown....

It never affected the flavour and i only ever got them when i used carbonation drops.... weird...

[Kevnlis]

A ring with no film is not always an infection...

[WSC]

I have had the same thing as you describe with the ring on the top of the bottle and slight amount of film. If it is really off it will be super fizzy and have an off taste/smell.Trust me I know from some really off brews I have done.

I have had this on a few beers and they are all drinkable, not my best but drinkable.

They have also got better with age. If there is an infection it gets worse with age.

[Chris]

I used to get a ring around the top of all my bottles when I used malt to carb. Thankfully not an infection, and hence my question as to what was used.

[Kevnlis]

I used to get a ring around the top of all my bottles when I used malt to carb. Thankfully not an infection, and hence my question as to what was used.

But he did say there was a film as well... normally bottle krausen or undissolved floaties will leave a ring in the bottle but not cause a film as well.

[Chris]

Yeah. Didn't re-read the first post.

[James L]

yeh... i read straight over the film bit.... I've never had film...

[rwh]

Acetobacter isn't nice, but it's not poisonous. Just makes the beer lose its flavour and sour (like vinegar, because it creates acetic acid) with age. But it's actually beneficial in some styles of (sour) beer!

[andbrew]

Yeah, definitely a film. Minimal, but there. Disappeared when poured into the glass but I guess it just got absorbed into the beer as I poured.

Primed with normal household sugar but brewed with BE1.

Thought I had sanitised thoroughly (sodium percarbonate then rinsed then very hot water then drained) and did exactly the same for both the glass stubbies as the Coopers PET bottles. That is why I am confused as to why the glass ones have the film and ring, but the 5 PET ones have neither?

RWH, i read elsewhere about the sour Flemish beer so I just need to find some Flemish people in Perth to impress with it!

WSC; there is no gushing or excess fizziness or off taste or smell yet (after 2 weeks in the bottle)

Kevnlis; probably what you said. Lid is snap on and not super tight but no problems before. I did scrub and sanitise but already I have a kinda kirin clone in there fermenting so I hope it is OK. I basically tried to keep temps below 20 and bottled within 14 days. Already use the little bottler. I thought my sanitation was sound but maybe oxygen got in via the lid

Thanks everybody. Any ideas on why the diff between the glass and plastic bottles?

[Chris]

As far as glass vs plastic, I'd suggest that if you used the same process for cleaning both, it may be the caps. Did you soak them?

[Kevnlis]

As Chris said, probably a difference in the quality of sanatation of the bottles themselves or the caps. Slight possability you used oxygen absorbing caps for the glass bottles and that helped.

[andbrew]

Re the caps, that also confuses me.

I used new homebrand crown seals soaked in boiling water before I started bottling. Plastic PET caps were rinsed in sodium percarbonate. The bag the seals came in said to soak them in boiling water which is what I always do and had no probs before this.

[Kevnlis]

I am not certin a percarb rinse would be sufficient to kill acetobactor. What do you do to clean/sanitise the bottles?

[andbrew]

Kev
The bottles are cleaned and capped (loosely) after I empty them from previous brew. All visible traces of any sediment etc don't remain. Then, before filling with a new brew I fill with sodium percarbonate solution, rinse, very hot/boiling water, drain). I thought Coopers sanitizer (sodium perc) was sufficient but always use the hot water too. Their website advises:-
"Bottles – Clean bottles may be filled with sanitising solution drained from the fermenting tub after soaking for 2 hours, left to soak for a further 2 hours, then drained from the bottles."
Q1 What do you think I should use in future for the bottles.
These infected bottles I plan to clean, soak in bleach, then sanitize prior to filling with the next brew.

I just chilled and drank one tonight and the ring, slime disappates when pouring into a glass, is not visible in the beer after pouring, no smell and tastes fine so far. Fingers crossed but I'll have to increase my rate of consumption....... As mentiond before, all the glass bottles (56 stubbies, aargh!!) have the ring and slime and the Coopers PET bottles (only 4 x 740ml, double aargh!) have neither ring nor slime. Guess they'll be saved for drinking last!

I also noticed that none have any haze that is sometimes mentioned as being indicative of an infection.

Q 2 Do you reckon still acetobacter?

Q 3 If so, does it get worse when bottled and sealed (should be no more oxygen getting into the bottle, does that mean the infection doesn't get any worse?)

Thanks

[Kevnlis]

I use sodium percarb myself, but I use the 25% w/w stuff (the Coopers stuff is useless) and I only use it to clean, not sanitise. A good rinse with boiling water straight from the kettle (make sure you wear gloves when handling these bottles) is best for glass IMHO. Never had an infected bottle in over 5 years with this method.

I do still reckon Acetobactor, it is a very common infection which often goes unoticed (if your not looking for it) because it rarely leaves an obvious sign.

It will get worse to the point it has used up all of the oxygen available to it. This could take some time, or could already be finished. The only way you will know is to wait and see unfortunately.

[Chris]

Idophor, one-shot and bleach are all I ever use.

I noly mention this as I really don't like the Coopers cleaner. Idophor for fermenters and kegs, one-shot for any bottling and bleach for deep-clean.

[andbrew]

Thanks for the replies Chris and Kevnlis.

I'll use boiling water from now on, or the one-shot. Is one-shot easy to get at hb shops or does it go under any other name?

Hopefully all the oxygen is used up in the bottles and it won't get any worse but I'll keep trying to drink more (good excuse) as they are tasting quite drinkable just now.

I've also got some old sodium met (alkaline salts) that I haven't used 'cos of the fumes. Is there any use in using for them for the infected bottles instead of bleach?