Good head - no bubbles!

[Anna]

Well this is a strange one, but I'm sure one of you gurus knows the answer!

As reported in a previous thread, I made a brew 7 weeks ago using Coopers Draught K&K, BE1 and Saflager S-23. Pitched yeast at 20 deg, brewed at 14-16 deg, in primary for 4 weeks, carbing for 3 weeks.

We opened a couple of bottles last night - beautiful head, BUT NO BUBBLES rising! Didn't taste quite flat, but pretty much, with a horrible bitter after-taste. Would that be because of the different yeast? I've always made the Draught with the yeast supplied in the kit and it has been BH's favourite up till now. Don't know how he could drink this one - but he did (never known him to knock anything back - flat or otherwise!).

I know it's probably just too green yet, but the head with no bubbles has me puzzled....

Any ideas? Anna

[wrighty]

Gday Anna,
Have struck the same deal with a few brews. Good clean dry glasses help and wet ones knock the head off quickly.
Largers i have done ,not many, with S23 have always been a bit twangy my understanding is with largers is the longer the better
esp cold conditioning. Thats why i now brew ales quicker easier and better beers IMHO.

[Anna]

Hi Wrighty! Yes, I think you're right - I may go back to plain old K&K yeast when the weather warms up a bit. I thought I'd solved the cold weather problem with the S-23, but if it's going to taste like that it's not worth it! Trouble is now I've got 6 brews made with S-23. I just hope they improve with age. "Twangy" is definitely the word for it! Can anyone put my mind at rest? DrSmurto? Bum? Warra?

[Bum]

I don't make lagers so I can't tell you that this is the reason for the aftertaste but I'm gonna guess the only thing you chanced in your process was the brand of yeast. Lager yeasts need to be treated differently to ale yeasts. The primary fermentation takes a little longer and then you need to lager the brew. This basically just means keeping it cold for a long period before bottling. One of the benefits of lagering is that it give the yeast time to clean up after itself, making a cleaner tasting beer. The process is slightly more complicated than I describe but since I don't do it myself I probably shouldn't try to put too fine a point on it. I haven't read the following link but I'm sure if you persevere you'll have a good handle on the idea as the resource is very well regarded: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-5.html

As for the bubbles? No idea, maybe yeast related?

[EDIT: Oh, in future, if you want the best advice you can get you probably won't want to slap my name in the middle of those two. Someone is bound to get their nose out of joint! (I'm quite flattered, myself)]

[warra48]

Bum underestimates himself, and overestimates me. The real guru is DrSmurto.

I don't brew many lagers, Ive only ever done 3 before, although I'm building a starter at present from some harvested WY2001.

I think the key to lagers is patience, temperature control, and not stressing your yeast.

I have a TempMate, so I can control my fermentation temperature very precisely. My planned brew is a BoPils, and I build a starter of at least 5 litres. I pitch only the slurry, but I do the same as Dr Smurto in that I crash chill my starter, and cold pitch only the slurry from the starter into wort chilled down to fermentation temperature. I tend to do that at 9.5ºC to 10ºC. I shouldn't need to do a diacetyl rest this way.

If you use dry yeast, don't stress the yeast by underpitching. Do yourself a favour and pitch 2 packs.

Ferment for at least 3 weeks. 4 is fine.
I then rack for lagering, and lager at about 2ºC for at least a month. I'm planning to do 2 months this time. Lagering allows the beer to really clear and clean itself up.

The bottles will still carb up OK if I give them enough time.

Good luck with future brews. It's a long process to get a lager right, but the best of them are worth it.

[wrighty]

Hey Anna,
Get yourself some US O5 make the same beer and taste the difference.
Get a little more techno i would ditch the BE1 its shite IMHO replace with 1kg of malt
and some hops in a small boil maybe a liittle crystal steeped .
This may sound daunting but once you have done it you see how easy it is to improve a k&k.
Most coopers largers are ale yeasts anyway so dont be shy of going down that road with US 05
it is a very clean forgiving yeast that gives superior results than the kit yeast and much easier than S 23
wich is an unforgiving bastard.

[Anna]

Thanks guys! Well, too late to lager - it's all in bottles now. Do you think if I just wait long enough they will be OK? I do have 2 more on at the moment with (dry) S-23 (only 1 pack each), so I might just chuck another pack in each one. Is the US05 a dry yeast?

(Stuff this lager business - all too hard! I'm going back to ale's!)

[wrighty]

US 05 is a dry yeast red/pink packet made by fermentis.
Im sure your brews will be fine given time thats the shitty part about makin largers seem to take time to knock off the rough edges.
I lack the patience or im not a camel.

[warra48]

Anna,
Seeing as your beers have carbed up, judging from your description of a beautiful head, you can still lager them after a fashion.
Just store them in your fridge and keep them cold until you're ready to drink them.

Yeah, I agree, ales are a lot easier in many ways.

[Anna]

Ah, but have they carbed up? They have a head, but no little bubbles rising underneath! I've never seen that before - is it a lager thing?

[warra48]

I guess it begs the question.

If they haven't carbed up, where does the head come from?

Bottled beer does tend to carb up finer, the longer you leave it, in my experience.
The CO2 seems to dissolve into finer bubbles, giving your beer a tighter head.

If your beers are not bubbling after you've poured them, you either, or both:

Have a very very clean glass
Have a clean beer with nothing in it to give you nucleation points.

Either way, I see that as a plus. So long as my beer has a good head once poured, and it stays, then I'm more than happy. The continuing bubbling is not something I look for.

Having said that, you can always get your beer to fizz more by stirring up what little deposit of yeast etc you have in the bottom of the bottle.

It's your choice, your beer, and have it the way you like it!

[Anna]

"Nucleation" Warra? Please explain...

But... I'm happy to report that BH tried a bottle of the suspicious "All head, no bubbles" Coopers Draught S23 last night and it has now carbed up and he reckons it's the best yet! (A bit too bitter for my liking though - now that I'm a beer drinker too I've discovered I like ales better ). It's taken 4 weeks in primary and nearly 4 in secondary but what a relief (as I've got two more fermenters of the same stuff to bottle this weekend.)

[warra48]

CO2 dissolved in a liquid will tend to stay in solution, and only release gradually.

However, if we provide it with nucleation points, the gas has a trigger to build bubbles and release itself.

Have you ever poured a spoonful of sugar into a bottle of cola?
Well, the sugar provides the nucleation points, and you know the result from there!

[drsmurto]

Sorry, was away all last week enjoying one of my other alcohol related passions, wine.

A week in the Conawarra region, mmmmmmmmmm.

Anyway, seems Warra has answered your questions but I'll throw my thoughts on this one out there anyway.

Firstly, 14-16 is a tad too warm this yeast. 12 is reported to be the ideal temp with 9-14 as the range. Higher temps with produce more 'off flavours' and without an adequate lagering/conditioning phase you are unlikely to get rid of them in a hurry. I suspect this is the source of the after-taste you describe. This also depends on how quickly you got the temp down from the pitching temp of 20 to the ferment temp. Any longer than 24h and you likely have produced some funky esters/phenols etc.

I don't make a lot of lager and when i do i use liquid yeasts but the issues are the same. Currently have a dunkel and a bo pils lagering away. Will belt out another german pils and possibly a vienna lager while the weather remains cool.

The carbonation isn't an issue per se. Think of an english ale. Very low carb but still has a wonderful, pillow like head. As Warra pointed out, the act of pouring the beer with knock out some of the CO2 in solution. Gases don't 'like' being dissolved in liquids as a general rule. This results in your beer having a nice head on it but the beer underneath is low carbed.

So it sounds to me like you have either carbed your beer too low or it hasn't carbed up fully yet. Assuming you have used the same procedure that you have done for all your beers i think its time for some patience.

By leaving the beer in primary for so long you have reduced the amount of yeast left in suspension, hence it takes longer for the beer to carb up. 4 weeks is fine, I am not saying this isn't a good idea, in fact, for lagers its probably very beneficial as it allows time for the yeast to clean up after itself (although it sounds like it hasn't done a very good job of it in this case).

A bit late with my reply but some food for thought i hope.

Cheers
DrSmurto

[Anna]

Thank you so much both Warra and DrSmurto! Your explanations are, as usual, very illuminating. The lager is definitely getting better every day, so you must be spot-on! (Learning, learning, learning......) Anna

[jayse]

This is actually how I prefer my beer and in general how all good craft beers should be, streams of bubbles rising up in beer? maybe for lemonade or cheap yellow fizzy swill but not craft beer as far as I am concerned.

[Anna]

This is actually how I prefer my beer and in general how all good craft beers should be, streams of bubbles rising up in beer? maybe for lemonade or cheap yellow fizzy swill but not craft beer as far as I am concerned.

Well how about that! So can I now call myself a "craft brewer"? Actually, those particular brews just keep getting better. (Don't know why I fret so much.....must learn patience!)