Cider / lactose question

[Anna]

Just a quick question: I want to add 500 gm lactose to my next cider ('cause I hate dry cider) but I've read that it's difficult to dissolve. Do you have to boil it first to dissolve or can you just chuck it in with the fermentables? Anna

[drsmurto]

Its much more difficult to dissolve so you need to use a decent amount of boiling water.

Bare in mind that lactose isn't as sweet as normal sugar. Not by a long way - Link

500g in a 20L batch would be the minimum. I must admit that i have used it only a few times as i like a dry cider but the few attempts i did make used 250g and i didn't notice any difference.

[Anna]

Thanks Doc. I was thinking of using 500 gm in 17 litres - 2L boiling water to dissolve the lactose and fermentables, 5L of juice + 10L of cold water.

[Planner]

500g in a 20L batch would be the minimum. I must admit that i have used it only a few times as i like a dry cider but the few attempts i did make used 250g and i didn't notice any difference.

Anna

I agree with the doc. I don't mind a dry cider, but SWMBO loves sweet cider (the sweeter, the better). I added 500g to the last batch (20l) and could hardly taste any "sweetness" at all, still far too dry for her. Next time at least 1000g.

I used about 2l to dissolve the 500g and it dissovled reasonably easily.

Planner

[Bum]

Thanks Doc. I was thinking of using 500 gm in 17 litres - 2L boiling water to dissolve the lactose and fermentables, 5L of juice + 10L of cold water.

If you'll forgive me for being so bold, bugger that water off and use all juice. Unless you're using an unmentioned kit but even then you could go maybe 50/50 juice/water if that doesn't make it higher alc than you intend. More juice equals more cidery goodness. More water equals more water.

[Longwood-65]

I just stated drinking my 3rd Cider tonight, it is quite sweet and I hadn't added any lactose.

I think the sweetness has come from either the brand of apple juice used, or the yeast type, or possibly the brewing Temp. The cider I'm drinking tonight was brewed at a higher temp that what I had planned ( 28-30) or a combination of all 3.

I have made 3 ciders to date, and I think 5 litres of juice is plenty, and any more would be more like drinking apple juice than cider.

Just my 2 cents

Regards,
Ron

[Anna]

Hi guys - thanks! All your suggestions tie in with what I've been thinking. After reading some really old posts (mainly from the Doc), I have to use all juice - no kit at all - made up to 15L. But even then, since I suspect all the sugar in the juice will be fermented out, it will still be too dry, so I think I'll try the lactose, maybe 500 gm? (Wonder if you could buy it at the chemist? You used to be able to buy it years ago to put in baby formula.) So, if I'm correct in thinking that's all it needs - all juice, lactose and yeast, what on earth do they put in the kits? I really love sweet apple-juicy cider - like Magnum (Magna, Mag....something...had 2 bottles and can't remember...) That's what I'm aiming at anyway!

And now I'm gonna be really, really radical and suggest using Cooper's kit ale yeast (since I've got a couple left over in the fridge and can't be bothered driving the 10 or so kms to the HBS)!! Whatdoyareckon? One sachet or two? Anna

[drsmurto]

If you are drinking sweet cider and it was made from a kit it contains artificial sweeteners.

If you brew a cider using only apple juice then unless you either stop the fermentation by killing the yeast and keg your only other option is to add lactose or an artificial sweetener.

Apple juice is highly fermentable. Most yeast will get the SG down to 1.000, some even lower resulting in a dry cider.

[Anna]

SO! Lactose and Coopers Yeast it is then! (This will be very interesting..... ).

[drsmurto]

As long as you keep the coopers yeast at or below 18C.

Any higher and the banana esters will start to dominate.

You would be better off using a cleaner yeast strain - either US05 or nottingham, even S-04.

Its also nice to add some yeast nutrient so either boil up some old kit yeast or get some nutrient from your HBS. Apple juice is lacking in lots of the good stuff that yeast needs for a happy and healthy life.

[Anna]

Hmmmm (puzzled): Is there something in the apple juice that requires the Coopers yeast to be kept at 18C? I brew my ales with Coopers yeast at around 20-22C and they're always OK. Also, can the expand a bit on boiling the kit yeast to use as a nutrient? Thanks as always.

[Anna]

I just stated drinking my 3rd Cider tonight, it is quite sweet and I hadn't added any lactose.

I think the sweetness has come from either the brand of apple juice used, or the yeast type, or possibly the brewing Temp. The cider I'm drinking tonight was brewed at a higher temp that what I had planned ( 28-30) or a combination of all 3.

I have made 3 ciders to date, and I think 5 litres of juice is plenty, and any more would be more like drinking apple juice than cider.

Just my 2 cents

Regards,
Ron

Hey Ron, can you supply your recipe? What brand of apple juice? What yeast? Did you use a nutrient?

[Bum]

Anna, if you're bulk priming it will be a very simple thing to add the lactose when you bottle if it is inconvenient to get some from the LHBS now. The benefit there is that you can taste the finished product and decide if you need a lot or just a little.

As long as you keep the coopers yeast at or below 18C.

Any higher and the banana esters will start to dominate.

She's using the kit yeast, Doc. Not re-cultured bottle yeast. That temp is obviously good to stick to anyway, Anna, but don't worry too much about the bananas on this one.

As for the nutrient - you just boil up a kit yeast in a small amount of water. This kills the yeast and the good yeast you pitch eats it up along with your fermentables. It is the circle of life! Not a very scientific answer, of course, but I dunno how tech-y that one need to get. Obviously most commercial yeast nutrients will perform a bit better but the extra outlay is not essential.

[Anna]

That's great Bum! I'm all excited now, 'cause I've got quite a few unused kit yeasts in the fridge. Sweet cider, here we come! (I don't bulk prime though, but yes, that would make it very easy to get the sweetness you want.) Maybe I'll try 700 gm lactose.

[Bum]

Personally, I'd err on the side of caution for the first one. If 500g ends up being a little too dry for you you can still backsweeten with some apple juice on serving.

I don't like my ciders sweet but I do like to undercut a really dry cider a bit so what I do is brew a cider a little heavier than I want then dilute with a little apple juice when drinking. Works quite well. I tried lactose and for me it lends a slight mouthfeel unpleasantness. I am a bit of a princess sometimes though and most people seem to not complain about this so I'm sure you'll be alright.

[drsmurto]

Did the same with my ginger beers.

Brewed them to 7%. Dry as a bone but diluted with ~1/3 by volume of lemonade and it went down a treat in summer a few years back.

[Finnagann]

Did the same with my ginger beers.

Brewed them to 7%. Dry as a bone but diluted with ~1/3 by volume of lemonade and it went down a treat in summer a few years back.

I like the sounds of that doc, cuts right past the sweetness problem. Do you have a recipe kickin around here anywhere?

Good luck Anna! Sounds tastey

[Anna]

As for the nutrient - you just boil up a kit yeast in a small amount of water. This kills the yeast and the good yeast you pitch eats it up along with your fermentables. It is the circle of life! Not a very scientific answer, of course, but I dunno how tech-y that one need to get. Obviously most commercial yeast nutrients will perform a bit better but the extra outlay is not essential.

Just thought of another question Bum: After boiling up the yeast for nutrient, do you just chuck it in the fermenter with the juice or should you add it to the yeast first and pitch together? Anna

[bullfrog]

I tend to pitch nutrient directly in to the fermenter.

...I could be doing it wrong, though

[Anna]

Well, if it works it can't be wrong! Thanks for that.